Revolution, revolution, revolution, revolution…
The Public Enemy sample faded out and one of the most basic chord sequences rock n’ roll has ever conceived cut in. And so began the career of one of the most successful bands*** in British history.
We understand that Alan Irvine does not listen to music in order to alleviate his boredom on long car journeys, and I have no idea what Stuart Webber hears when he’s behind the wheel of his chosen beast from the Norwich City FC sponsors’ list – if that’s still the way it works, of course.
But it seems to me Webber might have heard the track I’m referring to, especially as he is a Welshman. It advocates ripping out the old failures, introducing new blood and not being over bothered about offending a few people with comparatively thin skins.
“I laughed when Lennon got shot” was an awful lyric I heartily disapproved of at the time and still do to this day, but it got the band I’m referring to the media attention they craved to kick-start their careers. A risk followed by a minor media backlash, but what future success as a result!
Possibly the equivalent of removing a “sacred cow” or three from the Norwich City squad, methinks. And there is a massive cull to come.
Webber cannot achieve evolution – it has to be revolution, and it has begun.
Alex Neil laid some building blocks for his own, slightly inconsistent, version of evolution by signing Alex Pritchard, James Maddison, Eboue Adams, Ben Godfrey and one or two others. And then largely ignored them.
Anyone seen the gaps yet?
Young centre-backs and strikers. Never in Neil’s mindset.
So now Webber has to take all this on. It’s a massive remit. A Norwich City revolution is called for and we surely all hope it will be delivered.
Make no mistake, Webber cannot achieve his objectives by being nice and gentle. For him to be successful, the olde worlde order at Carrow Road has to end. He will know that and is prepared to act on his intellect I am sure. He would never have joined City if he thought restrictions on him would be too stringent, I am equally certain.
If he can surmount the Royle Family scenario (sorry, how else do I describe it?), I believe he could become the most important figure in the club’s recent history since Paul Lambert. But… another band I like wrote this at the end of the hippy era around 1971…
Revolution in their minds the children start to march. They hate the world in which they have to live, oh the hate that’s in their hearts.
* Children of the Grave (Black Sabbath)
Well, Webber’s certainly lambasted the crowd in a laid-back kind of way and even suggested a few bevvies before the game are in order.
I kind of agree with him – I doubt I’ve ever seen City play while medically sober myself but the youngsters find it hard to get tickets, which does us no favours for the future. And as there is very little hope in the current scenario for younger people to regularly attend Carrow Road; things look a little bleak in that respect.
My group in the Upper Barclay are all between 50 and 65. None of us would discharge our season tickets just now because it is an intrinsic part of our lives, but you can easily look around and see those of greater years and deep down wish those seats were filled with those who brim over with enthusiasm and spirit.
I’m terribly ageist to make that comment; I know and understand that. But when I can’t stand up to belt out On the Ball City at kick-off, I’ll know it’s time to go. And I’ll make sure my season ticket is passed on to somebody much younger than even my own (not too interested) adult children.
Maybe Stuart Webber feels the same as me. You cannot get the type of atmosphere he so obviously wants when three-quarters of the ground is virtually guaranteed to be silent and most of us Upper Barclay Boys are getting older every season.
It’s the Lower Barclay, Snakepit or nothing. And some of the stuff coming from the Pit hasn’t exactly impressed me lately. Especially the stupidity of criticising Jacob for that slice, among other things.
If you want younger supporters and a better atmosphere Mr Webber, I’m afraid you’ll have to somehow increase the capacity. Sorry, but there’s no other way.
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We’d all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We’re doing what we can.
*Revolution (Lennon/Beatles)
And for me, that says it all.
___________________________________________________________________________
***Manic Street Preachers (of course)
Everyone is drooling over this guy and he’s done nothing but state the bleeding obvious! We are too quiet, players are poo, high earners need to go and the youth need to get more of a chance (by loaning players maddison out yet again?!). He just talks an obvious talk, so let’s hope this revolution actually consists of something revolutionary cos this could be an exciting summer.
Jeff, he does state the obvious, people are positive about that because for some considerable time the board & coaching staff all seemed to ignore it…
Webber has come identified the issues (which to you may be obvious) and has now set about dealing with it.
Credit to the board for identifying their limitations and acting upon it.
Martin – there is another way to increase the capacity…. introduce a safe standing section to the ground, just a thought. You are spot on however the average age of supporters is increasing that is one of the problems.
Jeff – he states the bleeding obvious yes but he has identified this very early (he doesn’t have years of inside knowledge like us) and acknowledged it which AN or other members of the board haven’t. That’s why we are drooling but agreed he has to walk the walk next.
Told you ALL a few years ago that the old (over concessed) supporters need to go; adding nothing to the Carrow Road atmosphere. Cull the Season Ticket numbers through natural wastage, starting with the over 65’s
#1 Jeff: Spoken like a true Street Fighting Man.
I’m referring to some of the lyrics in the Stones song, not inferring you’re violent:-)
Drooling? Not at all. But SW offers real hope, which I had no sense of under our recently-departed CEO.
He has yet to ‘walk the walk’, agreed. But he’s had next to no opportunity thus far (except to decimate the recruitment team) to do much – although I bet he has been going at it hammer and tongs behind the scenes.
As you say, it will be an exciting summer.
I think we should all calm down a bit about this guy. Fantastic track record, has he? Really? Take another look. Then ask yourself how much was he centre stage as he will be at Carrow Road.
Having been attending since 1960 I, as much as anyone, hope he is a savior. But lets all keep a sense of perspective and judge him on results. He has to deliver a first class Head Coach first and, more importantly, set up a scouting system that is fit for purpose not fit for budget.
#2 John: yes, introducing safe standing (surely in the Lower Barclay, and maybe the Lower River End too – I can imagine some of the reaction in the latter) may well be an alternative way forward.
I can imagine it might be a bit of a minefield to establish, but when you think about it many of the LB stand for most of the time anyway.
Even most of us older folks in the Upper Barclay stand up for corners, free kicks and balls over the top. The stewards have Nelson’s eyesight for these moments.
#3 Stag: you’re pretty much spot on.
#4 Tommy: yes, that’s great in theory and actually I guess you make a reasonable point.
But how do you tell a supporter he must give up a season ticket simply because he has become a concession (which I believe begins at 66)?
Of course we need younger and more vociferous fans so #2 John’s point about safe standing could prove to be the answer.
I’d much prefer to stand – I think most of us of almost all ages would tbh.
#6 Mikey: I repeat my comment to #1 Jeff: Stuart Webber offers us a hope that has been absent since the February before last.
I agree he has much to do and there is little room for false steps. Let’s see.
@Mikey B #6. To be brutally honest, I reckon Sooty and Sweep could do a better job than recently-departed Lee Darnborough did(n’t!).
SW has been here around 3 weeks and in that short time he’s assessed the club’s problems, identified pretty much who to retain and whose services will be surplus to requirements and disbanded a dismally inept scouting framework.
Moxey had 6 months or so and his only legacy was to mutter ‘promotion’ three (3) times at an AGM.
I know which I’d rather have holding the reins of my football club.
John #2: Just to clarify, ‘safe standing’ does NOT increase capacity. At least not when it’s first in place, and possibly not after that either.
Stag #3 (and others): A quick preview quote from my interview with Steve Stone (to be published here in the next few days): “I feel optimistic. The proof will be in whether we deliver it or not. I’m acutely aware of that, as is Stuart”
#9 Jon: Wise words and thank you for them.
I think most of us feel the way you do. You can tell by the comments, let alone my article:-)
#10 Stewart: I realise there are many hurdles to be cleared before safe standing can be contemplated, let alone installed, but once the process is set in motion it surely must increase capacity just by its geometry alone?
Maybe they won’t choose that route anyway.
Looking forward to reading the Steve Stone piece, you old tease you:-)
The upside of Webber is that many of his actions align directly with many fans long held viewpoints. The downside is any of us could have sacked people and nothing so far has inspired me. Let’s see what he actually does.
What it does go to show is that our club has, once again, been poorly managed for too long. So @2) no credit to the board. You give credit when action is taken to avoid years of failure. Not when it comes home to roost.
There is an issue with ground capacity. Supply and demand has meant the sale of 22,000 plus season tickets and, allowing for away fans, that there are very few casual tickets left over. It’s about time that we redeveloped the so called main stand. Demography suggests that if we were in the PL we could sell 35,000 tickets a game (perhaps more given the growing population and the fact that we have a hinterland of most of Norfolk). However, I can’t see the club doing that until/unless we have 2 or 3 seasons in the PL, which has to be the priority (unless we get an Abramowich owning us)
Interestingly, there has been no comment on season ticket sales for next season. I’m a bit nostalgic for the days when I could decide to go to a match at about 2.15 on matchday, cycle down, pay at the turnstyle and usually find about half a dozen or so mates to stand with. Nowadays you have to plan well in advance if you’re a casual fan.
Finally I do think that the lack of atmosphere is connected with having a regular season ticket. We all take our Saturday afternoon a bit for granted. It is also connected with team performance. As fans we’ve been dissatisfied and too ready to get on top of the team (this coincided with the rot setting in and the growth of dissatisfaction with Neall). Perhaps with more casual supporters getting the chance to be there the atmosphere would improve.
One of the hardest tasks will be to overcome the cynicism that has become such a part of the club (understandably) in recent times but credit where credit is due he has made a positive start. If only a dozen or so of the current squad will survive that too is positive and I would not be averse to seeing a couple of fans favourites moving on. Time is required to sort out the unholy mess Mr Neil has left behind so let’s replace cynicism with patience and we’ll be fine.
#13 Paul: a very interesting comment.
I remember moving ‘back’ here around 1988 and my ex-wife’s uncle would sometimes get me a seated ticket until I could get my first ST for 1989-90.
I also well remember paying at the turnstile before then and joining in the banter with people I’d never met before in my life while standing on the River End.
I also remember going in the Clarence Harbour or the Kingsway for a pint beforehand and loving the atmosphere.
Probably a great way to watch football – so maybe your point about casual supporters is a very valid one. Thank you.
Stating the obvious might seem like nothing, but a man with influence is actually saying these things it is a massive step.
Moxey and Neil were see no evil, hear no evil.
A big clear out, safe standing, entertaining football and proper recruitment are needed.
Seems so simple……
Martin #11: I hope people will like the Steve Stone interview and find it informative. No credit to me – I didn’t have to challenge stock answers and vacuous phrases, because he didn’t offer any. An interesting guy.
To increase capacity in the city stand why not build over it other teams have done it in the past.
This would allow the frame work to be done over the summer and no revenue lost.
As for ST holders firstly monitor usage if a long term holder doesn’t use it for the majority of the season buy it back and reissue it to someone on the waiting list.
If they built over the city stand all tickets could be sold only on match day for a trial period to see how many casual supporters actually purchased tickets then offer some at a later date to the ST waiting list.
Better idea build a new ground.
Alex (18) – You’re on dodgy ground even contemplating the prospect of a new ground 😉 I did once and I *didn’t* get away with it!
https://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/2015/11/18/carrow-road-to-relocate-or-not-to-relocate-should-that-not-now-be-the-question/
And that was nothing compared to the flak that was flying on Twitter!
I’m always interested in the ground capacity debate. One small point which is possibly worth mentioning is that there can be distinct difference between non-season ticket holders and ‘casual supporters’. There’s a number of people who comment on this site (myself included) who aren’t able to get to Carrow Road regularly who I don’t think should be described as a ‘casual supporter’. Indeed, as Paul (13) suggests, any time I go to a home game it requires a huge amount of planning (and often diplomacy) to get there. I occasionally go to some of my local teams as a casual supporter & I agree there is definitely a place for people like that too.
Martin & #2 John
I was ambivalent about safe standing until I was asked by the Supporters Trust to chair a debate about it. What became clear at that debate was that the capacity of Carrow Road is limited by the number and design of the the ‘vomitaries’ — gross word, meaning the exits and routes to and out of them. They’re designed to cope (just) with the current capacity. If you squeezed in more standing spaces, you wouldn’t get a safety certificate — because the area in which you put the extra fans couldn’t be safely evacuated. Reconfiguring the vomitaries would mean prohibitively expensive structural changes to the stand …. which would decrease capacity.
But the fold-away seat system favoured by many safe standing advocates, and used in Germany, is literally a one-for-one replacement for seats in which capacity remains identical.
#Paul13 Demography does indeed suggest 35,000 crowds in the Prem. McNally commissioned a proper study by the UEA which put the viable figure for increased capacity at 35,000. But McNally looked at all options for reaching that capacity (including building over existing stands #27 AlexB) and concluded that 7,000 more seats would cost £20m (in 2012. More now). So that would be either £20m taken from the players budget, or borrowed against future income (and reducing future players budget as the debt is repaid). It would take six years for the extra seats to recoup the £20m, let alone interest.
So I’d make three points:
1) Despite what some think, the NCFC board do consider all these things, properly, with facts.
2) There is nothing wrong with the atmosphere when we’re winning. It was magnificent in the Lambert years.
3) Try and take my season ticket away from me because of my age and I’ll see you in court.
#20 Dave: I sympathise, I really do. I have walked to the ground more often than not for nearly 30 years now, so it would take something pretty severe to stop me going.
But we don’t all work in Norfolk or are retired and can live where we like. I’ve been lucky.
However I went through a period of casual tickets and 250-mile round trips – an ST wasn’t viable as I often worked Saturdays
However back in the Eighties, we were rarely sold out and you could at least guarantee a ticket over the phone from the “Box Office”.
Times have changed.
There’s no easy solution to this one.
#21 Mick: I genuinely didn’t consider the vomitaries, so thank you. The term makes me think of classical Rome, tbh.
But what an excellent observation – even as it is, an evacuation from the Upper Barclay bar at half-time would surely be fraught with danger. The necessary safety certs must be in place, but I do sometimes fear for the tinies and less sturdy supporters if a serious crush got underway.
Even the queue for the toilets can be problematical in that area, especially if one or two people have had a touch too much to drink and get a little tetchy.
You are of course absolutely correct about foldaway seats, which we already kind of have.
“3) Try and take my season ticket away from me because of my age and I’ll see you in court.”
If push ever comes to shove, you will not be alone:-)
As usual Mick Dennis backs the board and says that all options are looked at, Great that he is in the know but as a business plan the board seem short sighted.
1) All businesses must grow to keep up with demand.
2) Has all options in the corners been taken up.
3) The big question that possibly all supporters
Want answering outside investment.
We all appreciate the time, effort and money the current board members have put into the club no one can denie the club would be in big trouble without them.
But all businesses need fresh in put wether it be money or ideas.
The club says it isn’t for sale does that mean that they are also not looking for someone to come in with and invest to take the club forward just look at Swansea and Crystal Palace sold a percentage kept the current board for experience and history why can’t city due the same.
It could be that the old guard are scared or jealous that if they allow someone else in the club could be taken to a new level and it will look like they have held the club back for years.
Excellent debate. I was told recently at a business function held at carrow road by a club official conducting a ground tour that the plans are intact to build a cantilever above the city stand. This would have no impact on attendances as the work could be carried out while the stand is still in use.
The modern sanitising of football crowds has removed much of the tribal, youthful profile of support forever. Gone are the days when the greater Norwich area would be emptied of men under the age of 35 as they embarked en masses for a big away trip in the FA cup.
Watching televised football It doesn’t strike me that other clubs grounds are cauldrons of noise, mostly the players and the managers are the loudest voices to be heard.
Mr Webber should recognise that following a protracted period of failure the urge to sing and chant isn’t as prevalent as when a team is gunning for glory.
The suggestion that a “cull” of the clubs supporters over a certain age isn’t worthy of comment. I’ve a good many years before I reach such an age but I’m with #21 Mick when it comes to defending my season ticket, either in the courtroom or the car park.
There should be enough capacity at carrow road for every supporter who wishes to attend, regardless of age or any other demographic.
Alex B #18: I wish it were as easy to add to the City Stand as you suggest.
As I understand it, building an extra tier would require substantial changes in the lower tier and for instance support structures going back across what’s now the road. In short, there’s no way to make a major increase in capacity without big disruption and the stand being out of commission for a season. Sadly.
Didn’t want to get into details about safe standing, so I’m happy that Mick (#21) has spelled it out
Thanks to each and every one of you for your comments on this one.
I’m sure we’ve all sung “I’m City Till I Die”, all meant every word of it and still do. My favourite comment of this particular debate was from Mick Dennis. Nobody will be taking my season ticket away until I’m ready either.
But if I feel incapacitated in any way, I really will pass it on to someone much younger than myself, so the Tommy’s of this world have a point too, I believe.
If I were an architect with thirty squillion quid I could sort everything out for all of us, obviously.
But I’m not, I haven’t and I can’t.
But as #25 Chris says, a great debate and thank you all once again for your responses.
Not sure my 80 something dad will be too keen on this theory of season-ticket euthanasia; he may not be as loud as the teenagers who sit in front of us but he’s every bit as passionate and more. Would like to see someone try and take his ST away!
Can’t help picturing the Oldies’ revolt here – Mick, Martin, me, Gary’s dad and a bunch of others marching down Carrow Road brandishing our pitchforks.
Grey power indeed.
24 – Alex B. The old ownership and additional investment chestnut. I feel a few words being tapped out on that very subject soon.
#28 Gary: Your comment is finite proof that a ‘cull’ on season tickets will never work.
Respect to you and your dad. You’re lucky to have him – mine’s been gone for 16 years now and I wish him back just about every day.
And he was a West Ham fan…