Seven goals, three penalties (forget the fourth as it only existed in referee Tim Robinson’s mind until it unfortunately became a reality). We lost, and a necessarily hungry Hull won.
Madders’ hat-trick added to his summer sale value, we’ve probably lost Moritz Leitner for the season and I expect very little from this squad between now and season’s end, which in itself will come as welcome relief to many of us I am sure. And we still can’t beat carp (the Liverpool loan boy Wilson apart), which is of particular frustration to me.
The way Wilson got past Ivo Pinto was special, although quite what my favourite Portugeezer was doing on the wrong side of the pitch remains lost to me.
That’s enough of that already so I’ll move on.
Gary referenced two interesting “topics” in his article yesterday and I’m choosing to address the Canaries’ Bond issue offer first.
Why not? If your heart is in the right place and you want to help our youngsters at Colney and maybe make a little profit for yourself, it sounds a great offer.
Which it may well prove to be.
But there is a potentially fatal flaw in these Bonds. Whatever the Club may tell you, these offers can very often have more holes in them than a colander.
They are not covered by the national financial laws that bale investments out by up to £70k per individual if it all goes Pete Tong. This Government legislation that dictates all our personal and business bank accounts are covered if the bank goes bust is not applicable in this instance.
Oh no.
The club, to their credit, have said anyone thinking of investing should seek independent financial advice first. Maybe rather far down the sheet in the PR spin but it is there.
My – probably useless – advice is to only invest what you can freely afford to lose. I have never contemplated withdrawing my season ticket academy donation but that’s a freely given financial donation, not a gamble.
My decision on the Bond issue is that I will not contribute because of the way so much money has been wasted by the Board in the past and I do not think anything will improve with them in situ, despite the best efforts of Steve Stone and Stuart Webber. You don’t chuck away a fiver and celebrate finding 50p.
Let’s all make up our own minds on this one and good luck to all of us in our decisions.
Onto the next topic from Gary’s article: social media.
What a week it’s been for something I consider somewhat akin to the Black Death (ask one Steve Downes at Archant who got crucified for offering his opinion on the issue of our local homeless).
It was a clumsy, elitist and upsetting piece of writing that I disliked intensely but I would never disparage his family over it like many of the Twitterati did. It was his opinion and as much as I disagree with it the level of abuse he received was ridiculous and unwarranted.
It now transpires our illustrious MFW editor has apparently very recently been vilified for his views and called some nasty things, taken it on the chin, packed up his kit and marched on with thick skin intact. (I think Baldy was justified too btw).
Now I’m not as hard as Gary. While I will use the Missus’ Facebook account to interact with any of our collection of kids when one of them is on the other side of the world, that’s it. Twitter? Stick it where the sun don’t. Neither of us use it.
We are so lucky here on MFW that we have live moderation. That may dictate that some comments take a while to appear, but we can all speak with each other without fear of abuse.
While I realise Twitter is an essential tool of modern journalism I will balance that by saying thank Lordy I am retired and do not need it.
If I want abuse I can half-listen to the Missus (she would say the same about me) and if I want quality banter I can go to the pub.
To me Twitter is an on-line version of herpes – I’ve never had it and I don’t want it.
Finally let’s all please remember we are Norwich, not West Ham. We do not throw coins at our Directors (whatever some of us might think of them), do not invade the pitch* and do not divert frightened kids into the opposition dugout. Fantastic gesture from Sean Dyche and his Burnley colleagues in facilitating that).
We are so much better than that and we will surely always remain thus.
*The half-hearted invader idiot from Forest was hardly “one of our own”.
On the Bond: it is a legally binding and enforceable agreement. It’s true money invested in it will not be guaranteed by the Government’s Financial Services Scheme (which pays out on your first £85k — not £70k — held in a bank account if the bank goes tits up. That’s because the FSS is for banks. Lots of other, widely used savings/investments are not covered. I have pension ‘pots’ that are not covered, and, unlike the Bond, their value can go down as well as up.
The only circumstances in which you wouldn’t get the Bond money back, plus the promised interest, is if there’s ‘an insolvency event’: that’s the legal term in the Bond offer. In other words, it’s only at risk if the club becomes bankrupt or goes into administration in the next five years. That risk has to be alluded to in the offer, because the law, quite properly, says all such offer documents must do so, not because anyone fears there’s a risk of insolvency of NCFC!
After months in which there’s been speculation about the academy, the launch of the Bond is a commitment by the club to keeping it, improving it, maintaining category one status and making it central to the Webberlution: that’s a commitment to bringing kids through.
The most you can get from a new ISA at the moment is 1.6 per cent.
I’m in.
Thanks for the expansion and clarification Mick. Your financial knowledge is obviously far greater than mine – which isn’t great praise in itself as I am basically fiscally illiterate. I didn’t realise the FSS limit had increased either.
My stance on this is that while I do not find it insulting in any way it is not for me – and so many of us might not have the wherewithal to contribute effectively.
Every printed ad for this type of scheme in the nationals always end with the line: Your capital may be at risk; seek financial advice before committing. To a layman like myself that phraseology sets the old alarm bells ringing – I’ve never been a gambler:-)
I doubt we’ll ever go bust either and some time in 2023 I will probably regret not having invested.
As I said in the article, we must all make our own individual decision.
Anyone who has given our books even a cursory glance know that we are headed towards insolvency bar a miracle. We’d be in the red this coming year if it weren’t for a few good signings left on the books.
Yes Dave I agree – it’s a downward slope whatever way we choose to look at it.
Respect to you for your comment.
I’ve given the books, and our track record, far more than a cursory glance – and I believe you’re talking tosh. But as Martin rightly said, everyone should consider things carefully and make their own judgement – ideally consulting an independent financial adviser.
I’d love to see your analysis.
Mine is here: https://tinyurl.com/y8rvyo9j
Much I could say. I trust my comment below – that people should consult more expert and objective financial advice than yours or mine – explains why I’m going to hold off.
FSCS, chaps, not FSS. Financial Services Compensation Scheme. That’s a Cash ISA rate Mick, Equity ISAs can provide much more. Or lose money of course.
Right on both points. Sorry about the missing C. I was writing from memory, in a hurry.
And that’s exactly why I got my “banks go bust” compensation figure wrong – writing from memory and in a REAL hurry!
Thanks for your involvement in this thread – much appreciated.
At last some sanity from Mick! Martin, please do some research and at least understand the concept of an investment bond before writing such ill-informed drivel. As for moderation, I think MFW needs to enforce some on it’s
own writers. (and please don’t give me the ‘everyone’s entitled to their opinion’ claptrap)
Not really sure that level of venom was justified. Martin’s is an opinion piece.
And any editorial digs should certainly be aimed at me and not Martin.
All getting very nasty .
On the button once again. I use Facebook for Norwich History . that is the City. Twitter is there but seldom used.
When we relied on The Pink Un . for news and views and we wanted to give our opinion we reached for the pen and paper along with a stamp. And no small amount of luck that you had written a decent letter and made a darn good point . O for those days
Well said Lad.
Nobody really wants to reinvent the past but what you say is spot on.
I remember picking up the PROPER Pink’un at Blofield United’s clubhouse around six-ish every Saturday – if the first team were away then the Reserves played at home and vice versa. The delivery gent couldn’t get them out of his bag quick enough – most of us bought one!
Thank you once again.
Here’s some further ill-informed drivel from me, “Llamaman”
I write under my own name and do not hide behind a moniker.
If you disagree with me that’s fine – but please don’t do it without a counter-argument to what I am saying in my scribblings.
I understand that you consistently dislike my views – as do several other MFW readers, I’m sure – but I feel like as far as you are concerned I am wearing one of those old Mod T’s with the bullseye on the front.
Give it a rest, hey?
The respect I think once again the point is being missed. After twenty years of ownership the progress has been so poor that the owners are asking the fans to pay for their previous poor decisions, it beggars belief.
An item in today’s EDP talks about the board dealing with inherited debt. After twenty years surely they can’t still be blaming Chase!
It is clear that after missing several opportunities to establish Norwich City in the premier league and failing now is the time for somebody else to take over the reigns.
Delia will be only too happy for us to discuss the technicalities of bond issues rather than querying why the need arose in the first place.
Agree JohnF .. I like what Mick says “the launch of the Bond is a commitment by the club ” What a commitment to get somebody else’s money once again .
When Mr Foulger offered to match what supporters left their season ticket prices at, on relegation a few years ago. He did at the very least go pound for pound.
Again supporters paying for Mis Management . that is my opinion. everybody has one
Spot on!
The club could fund the academy redevelopment from its own turnover, but that would mean less would be available for the playing fund (wages and transfer fees). So it would have meant selling more players this summer than will now be necessary.
Even if we were “established” in the Premier League, it would probably be sensible not to deplete the playing fund to rebuild the academy. West Ham, Southampton, Palace, Stoke and West Brom currenty occupy the bottom five places, Three of them are likely to suffer a catastrophic drop in income this summer.
It really does seem to me that issuing a Bond that is a good deal for fans is a sensible way forward, regardless of what division we’re in.
Of course, the club could have closed the academy or not sought to keep it at category one.
And if the Bond Scheme should fail, it will all be the fault of supporters according to the BOD…..
Written in the sand mate, written in the sand.
Great short sharp comment – cheers.
I find myself in a strange position on this one John.
While to many of us it’s another outing for the Board’s dry ice and firecrackers I don’t blame them for trying.
I reiterate: we all have our own choice. Mick’s in, I’m out and I guess editor Gary is too..
But I’m sure many of us will embrace the opportunity while others will reject it.
My mate said yesterday this idea shapes up as the NCFC equivalent of Custer’s Last Stand.
And we all know what happened to him…
Oh, and another thing…
The club’s announcement of the Bond included this:
Some board members “have committed to invest into the Canaries Bond alongside supporters, on the same or lesser terms.”
So some of the directors are going to lend the club money via the Bond and take less interest than the rest of us, or none at all.
By doing it that way, they ensure that their new loans are ringfenced for the academy.
My problems with this scheme are both financial and moral.
Financially this is a risky investment. As I point out here https://tinyurl.com/y8rvyo9j the club is in real trouble. My comments are all based on public figures, so this isn’t ‘an opinion’. Post parachute payments we’ll have an income of approx. 30M. Costs for the club, before paying a single player’s wage (or any staff for that matter) are approx 30M. Meaning, without selling players, we can’t afford to pay players or staff. Would you ever invest in a business that can’t pay it’s staff?
Yes, you may get 5% back, but the risk to reward ratio has to be very high.
From a moral standpoint I think this scheme is outrageous. The board are treating the fans as a bank. The board won’t sell a single share that would dilute their power, stating all different reasons including “not wanting the camels coming to Carrow Road”, but will happily take money from any source for this bond. They want your money now, but they don’t want you to have any ownership of the club. For them they either walk away in five years with the same power they had, or they can’t pay it back and who knows what happens.
If Delia offered up her shares I’d happily take a few off her hands and I would be willing to match the price with a similar contribution to the club. Effectively becoming an investing owner.
What I won’t do is become their personal credit line.
I could respond to this point by point, but won’t. What it underlines is the importance, for anyone thinking about investing, of consulting with someone more expert, and more impartial, about Norwich’s finances than either Dave Bowers or myself.
Meanwhile just one question. The directors are closest to the club’s finances. Doesn’t it seem a little extraordinary that they’re investing in the Bond if, as Dave claims, “bar a miracle” they’ll lose their money?
They’re adding a 3.5M building to the value of their own company. They’ll be fine.
If it was such a great deal they’d front all the money themselves.
Weren’t you just last week saying that Webber took over NCFC in a worse state than McNally (when it was next to bankruptcy). Now investing is a smart move? Consistency Stewart?
Also, please quote me accurately. I said bar a miracle the club is headed towards insolvency. Without selling every good player we own that remains true. Or, of course we get promoted.
I’m not an unsecured bond expert, so I don’t know what will happen to their money if we don’t have cash on hand to pay it back. I’d imagine the board, by the fact that they are able to afford a football club, will be able to risk losing a few thousand quid.
That comment reminds me of an old-fashioned album title by I cannot remember who: Cruel But Fair.
Invest in a Smith-run business? Pick me up from the floor when I’ve stopped rolling around laughing.
I’m sure loads of us who read MFW are like myself in that they have a few bob they COULD invest in NCFC. That old thing my Dad said about the drippings from his nose comes back to haunt me.
Never, ever throw good after bad.
Just to say no-one is asking for (or offering) investment in the business. Just in a ring-fenced Academy scheme to provide an effective working environment for Daniel Farke.
Thanks Stewart for your rational post…however I fear that logic will never convince the jaudiced views held by some. They have their narrative and no amount of explaning will change it….sigh!
Unsure where this tirade has come from “Llamaman” … I appreciate I’m not allowed (in your world) to say “everyone’s entitled to an opinion” because it’s evidently “claptrap” … but however you wish me to word it, it is indeed the case. Even if you don’t agree with it.
I’ll happily take a guest blog – assuming you’re happy to put your name to it – so you can educate us uneducated.
Best
Gary
Yes Stewart that’s a valid point that I completely agree with.
However, the festering thought that (including wages) the entire outlay equals roughly ONE THIRD of a Steven Naismith means I cannot trust these people to make the right decisions and thus will not invest.
One factor some overlook is that if the two people whose judgement I DO trust (ie Webber and Stone) were to quit we would be back in la la land.
Do you see SW here in five years time?
A very, very good post David.
I think morally it is even worse than financial.
I’m in business and I’ve had people nearest and dearest to me work at the sharp end at Carrow Road and if everyone knew how that side is run, then you wouldn’t even dream of giving them you hard earned unless you had no intention of getting it back.
I think this scheme is dressed up as innovation, but is actually immorally bankrupt.
That is so, so true David. If the club were in such dire straights then just offer more shares to supporters. That way you don’t have to pay any money back. Effectively 100% profit. Or could it just be that this would dilute Delia’s shareholding to below 50% Now we can’t have that can we? I’ve supported City since 1959. This is my last season as a season ticket holder. It has become blindingly obvious that we will not be able to compete financially in the Championship, given the number of clubs that have significant funding. Add to that the fact that all relegated clubs come down with a minimum of £100 million. Our REAL problem is that, in Delia, we have someone who will not relinquish her control of the club. Whilst the Academy investment is laudable, it can in no way match the need for significant injections of money if we’re to get to the Premier, and establish ourselves there. Delia has denied supporters that opportunity. That cannot be right. Hence my decision to stop going to see the club I have supported since I was 9 years old.
Tony I felt really sad when I read your post. even if only because I feel the same.
Delia is on the cusp of driving me away as well – after a 30 year ST holding that is still current to this day.
The youngsters don’t understand and too many people of my age refuse to accept the truth. So she remains in situ. Sad, sad, sad.
Thank you for your comment.
Well said David Bowers
It truly does beggar belief at how badly this club has been run under the current owners with millions of PL money being wasted with no real plan if everything went Pete Tong. Where has the money really gone? Hmm well I doubt we’ll ever really find out. Now I’m not saying for one minute that Delia et al have been ‘cooking the books’ (pardon the pun), but I do know there is such a thing as ‘creative accounting’ so one would do well not to believe everything they read.
As it happens I cannot afford to ‘invest’ but even if I could I would give this a complete swerve as I have no faith in the Stowmarket Two (sorry Three now isn’t it !) or any of the other Board members for that matter.
I truly believe that DS and MWJ have been at the helm far too long but with their sheer arrogance to even consider any offers for the club if they were forthcoming and the complete act of nepotism in appointing ‘young Tom’ to the Board so as to hand down their shares, means it will be a long time before we are free from the Smiths. DS and MWJ might think they ‘own’ the club but they do not they are merely custodians and they would do well to remember that.
Football has moved on whether we like it or not and a self funding club is always going to tread water at best and at worst fall through the divisions into obscurity.
It’s often said ‘be careful what you wish for’ and the likes of Portsmouth, QPR, Birmingham, Blackburn, are cited as bad examples of inward investment, but with our current owners I fear we are heading only one way and that’s ‘to hell in a handcart’.
Delia Out !
Blimey. Possibly the best comment ever on one of my “articles”.
Smiffy you are right from start to finish, and I reckon the middle is pretty good too.
You use the word “arrogance” and I would add the word “ignorance” to couple with that. A dreadful combination. Not a single Smith knows anything of football itself. And that includes the nephew.
But the Smiths still have their adherents and we will possibly descend into oblivion as a direct result of that. It reminds me of Joan Collins being surrounded by pretty boys in a very loose comparative sense eg fading glamour propped up by sycophants who just love the vibe.
Us supporters remain the cash cows.
Guys: the Accounts tell us exactly where the money has gone. It’s not a happy story, which is why Stuart Webber and Daniel Farke (neither of whom is responsible for any of the waste) are trying to put the pieces back together.
It’s an individual decision whether we want to support them, or withhold our support because of wider and past mismanagements. But nothing is hidden.
by that remark on Joan Collins, Martin . I am reminded of once seeing a documentary on Freddie Starr, who is left to do shows round his house in spain or somewhere for those who feel honored to be invited (still waiting for my invite god no) doing things he did 40 plus years ago and his dutiful wife laughing at every line or gag. even the countless mind numbing times she has heard it.
Trouble he still thinks he can do a good job .
Ha! I once bumped (not literally) into Bernard Manning outside the Treasure Village Chinese sit-down in Knutsford where he was doing a cabaret turn. In the restaurant to about 200 folks.
Two things surprised me: firstly he was exceptionally short in stature and secondly he was extremely pleasant and polite. He’d only emerged to check on his Roller which was parked outside.
We had a lengthy chat and he didn’t come across as the racist idiot he was portrayed as in the media; not by a long chalk.
Those were (possibly) the days.
Webber nailed it superbly at the AGM in the context of Premier League money and walls – but there’s little to be gained having inquests now.
Am I happy about it – no, of course not. But the poor decisions from the past can’t be undone and the Academy situation isn’t just going to resolve itself.
The bond issue isn’t to everyone’s liking – I get that – but this seems a sensible approach to a problem which needs resolving. The only other alternative is to do away with the Academy and I don’t hear any calls for that option.
It’s interesting that, once again, after a series of poor results the topic turns to Delia Out.
I don’t know that much about the bond but it seems that it is not being forced on anyone. If you like it, go for it, if you don’t then stay away from it.
I can’t understand how it is being used as a stick to beat the board with. It is an idea to raise money for a project which will benefit the Club. How can that be bad?
Yes, there have been mistakes in the past but rather than dwelling on them (as they can’t be undone) we should be focusing on the future to avoid the typically doom mongering pronouncements of Dave B.
Sorry Mike as other have said misspent money in the past coming back to haunt the club and asking the supporters to bail them out.
I had a season ticket in the 60’s and 70’s till I moved north and started working overseas and in many locations for like mind city supporters and would gather around a radio or find somewhere to watch a game.
After the South/Chase/Jobes eras we all hoped for a better future under the Smiths and for a few years this proved to be the case and we sll enjoyed the ride.
Everything has a life expectation and you have to know when it is time to stand down and let a new force have a go, we are told that there is no offers to invest or potential buyers for the club I being a poor retired ex storeman find that hard to believe.
At the present time Charlton, Wigan have interested parties wanting to buy the clubs Blackpool according to the local Gazette have two interested parties all these have one thing in common they have let it been know they are open for business with no clauses to be met.
City need fresh owners/investment to move forward, no one want to see bad feeling fester between the club and supporters like is hapening at WHU and Hull, we would like to see a dignified hand over.
Sorry Mike as other have said misspent money in the past coming back to haunt the club and asking the supporters to bail them out.
I had a season ticket in the 60’s and 70’s till I moved north and started working overseas and in many locations found like mind city supporters and would gather around a radio or find somewhere to watch a game.
After the South/Chase/Jones eras we all hoped for a better future under the Smiths and for a few years this proved to be the case and we sll enjoyed the ride.
Everything has a life expectation and you have to know when it is time to stand down and let a new force have a go, we are told that there is no offers to invest or potential buyers for the club I being a poor retired ex storeman find that hard to believe.
At the present time Charlton, Wigan have interested parties wanting to buy the clubs Blackpool according to the local Gazette have two interested parties all these have one thing in common they have let it been know they are open for business with no clauses to be met.
City need fresh owners/investment to move forward, no one want to see bad feeling fester between the club and supporters like is hapening at WHU and Hull, we would like to see a dignified hand over.
Absolutely agreed Alex – the scenes at West Ham were truly disgusting.
I fear Blackpool will remain in the mire for some time yet.
Thanks for your thoughts.