I love Robert Chase.
I do.
I really do.
You may find at this moment your larynx start to spasm as it begins to form some spiky syllables of disagreement but, for the time being, put a sock in it and bear with me. Please. Allow me to present the Case for Chase…
Robert Chase – more ‘a Doctor in the House’ rather than ‘that doctor from House’ – joined Norwich City’s board in 1982. Three years later he took over as chairman from legendary old-schoolian Sir Arthur South. Although not a majority shareholder, Chase effectively ‘owned’ and ran the club for more than a decade – and during his tenure City enjoyed the greatest footballing period in their history.
In 1987 Norwich City finished fifth in the top division (now the Premier League). Imagine that?
Two years later he did it again, this time finishing fourth.
And in 1993 he finished third! Incredible.
Only the political repercussions of the Heysel tragedy in 1985, and England-wide European football ban that followed, prevented Norwich from creating their own European legacy during this period.
The argument that City suffered because Chase ‘sold all the best players’ doesn’t really hold water because… well, look at the previous few paragraphs. No other chairman or owner has got close to those achievements, before or since. Not. Even. Close.
On the player sales front (see list below), it could be argued Chase maintained City’s financial stability by making it the club self-sustainable which necessitated regular player sales (ringing any bells yet?) And his record on buying players young and cheap and selling them later in their careers is pretty darned good (those little danglers should be clanging loudly by now). In fact that comes across as shrewd. Webber-esque, in fact. (Ding, dong).
Added to Chase’s financial acuity and reinforcing his long-term commitment to the club’s future was the foresight to buy up a whole stack of land round Carrow Road rather than waste it on another Drazen Musinic, Dean Coney, or Darren Beckford (three rare transfer failures). He even built a cute little main stand to replace the burned-down one. No doubt if he’d stayed longer he would have got round to building a proper one.
So, financial acuity, club success, creating an increased national and international profile for the club, upgrading the facilities, and making City a better club to support… where’s the problem?
I love Robert Chase.
I do.
I really do.
(PS. In fact, I believe the only reason Big Bad Bob left in 1996 wasn’t because of the fan protests or his perceived unpopularity, it was because the Bosman Ruling happened just six months prior to his exit and I believe he thought that would seriously impact his modus operandi in buying players cheap and selling them high, and that would seriously threaten the club’s self-sustainability model. There you are – from The Boy Sadler – an exclusive!)
(PPS. Also a big shout out to the inestimable Geoffrey Watling who magnanimously and bravely stepped into the mire to plug the serious financial gap left when Mr Chase removed himself from the club. Without Mr Watling’s efforts at that time there would be no club left to support.)
The list of significant transfer transactions during Robert Chase’s tenure
(NB. To give you a better idea what these figures would be equivalent to in today’s inflated transfer market, try multiplying the amounts by somewhere between 10 and 20 times. That’s the sort of money we’d be talking nowadays.)
TRANSFER WINS:
Dave Watson
SOLD: £900,000 to Everton in 1986
BOUGHT: £50,000 from Liverpool in 1980
Chris Woods
SOLD: £600,000 to Rangers in 1986
BOUGHT: £225,000 from Nottingham Forest in 1981
Steve Bruce
SOLD: £800,000 to Manchester United in 1987
BOUGHT: £125,000 from Gillingham in 1984
Kevin Drinkell
SOLD: £600,000 to Rangers in 1988
BOUGHT: £90,000 from Grimsby Town in 1985
Wayne Biggins
SOLD: £150,000 to Manchester City in 1988
BOUGHT: £35,000 from Burnley in 1985
Mike Phelan
SOLD: £750,000 to Manchester United in 1989
BOUGHT: £60,000 from Burnley in 1985
Malcolm Allen
SOLD: £400,000 to Millwall in 1990
BOUGHT: £175,000 from Watford in 1988
Andy Townsend
SOLD: £1.2M to Chelsea in 1990
BOUGHT: £300,000 from Southampton in 1988
Andy Linighan
SOLD: £1.2M to Arsenal in 1990
BOUGHT: £350,000 from Oldham in 1988
Dale Gordon
SOLD: £1.2M to Rangers in 1991
BOUGHT: Nominal sign-on fee (first professional contract) in 1984
Robert Fleck
SOLD: £2.1M to Chelsea in 1991
BOUGHT: £580,000 from Rangers in 1987
Tim Sherwood
SOLD: £650,000 to Tottenham Hotspur in 1992
BOUGHT: £325,000 from Watford in 1989
Robert Rosario
SOLD: £600,000 to Coventry City in 1994
BOUGHT: Nominal sign-on fee (from non-league) in 1983
Ruel Fox
SOLD: £2.25M to Newcastle United in 1994
BOUGHT: Nominal sign-on fee (first professional contract) in 1986
Efan Ekoku
SOLD: £1M to Wimbledon in 1994
BOUGHT: £500,000 from AFC Bournemouth in 1993
Chris Sutton
SOLD: £5M to Blackburn Rovers in 1994 (a record British fee at the time)
BOUGHT: Nominal sign-on fee (first professional contract) in 1991
Mark Robins
SOLD: £1.1M to Leicester City in 1995
BOUGHT: £800,000 from Manchester United in 1992
Ashley Ward
SOLD: £1.2M to Derby County in 1996
BOUGHT: £350,000 from Crewe Alexandra in 1994
Jon Newsome
SOLD: £1.6M to Sheffield Wednesday in 1996
BOUGHT: £1M from Leeds United in 1994
YOU CAN’T WIN ‘EM ALL:
Dean Coney
SOLD: Retired injured in 1990
BOUGHT: £333,000 from Queens Park Rangers in 1989
Henrik Mortensen
SOLD: Free transfer to Aarhus in 1992
BOUGHT: £350,000 from Aarhus in 1989
Paul Blades
SOLD: £325,000 to Wolverhampton Wanderers in 1992
BOUGHT: £700,000 from Derby County in 1990
Darren Beckford
SOLD: £300,000 to Oldham Athletic in 1993
BOUGHT: £925,000 from Port Vale in 1991
Mike Sheron
SOLD: £550,000 to Stoke City in 1995 (where he scored a stack of goals! Bless ‘im)
BOUGHT: £1.2M from Manchester City in 1994 (banjo and cow’s a*se, for us)
AND THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY…
Dion Dublin
SOLD: Free transfer Cambridge United in 1988 (Later went to Man Utd, Coventry City, Aston Villa, & Celtic for combined fees around £10M, before finally returning to City in 2006 for a welcome and classy two-year swansong. Ta muchly, DD)
BOUGHT: Nominal sign-on fee (first professional contract) in 1985
The problem with Robert Chase, as i understand it and based on information of those involved with the FA at the time, was that he became ambitious, wanting desperately to become a senior figure in the FA and slightly”took his eye off the NCFC ball”. I believe the same happened with the then Chairman of Ipswich.
Am willing to stand corrected.
O my – the man had a chance to win the double twice and his failure to invest cost us dear! He bought land to replace players and you think that makes him a hero! Only a fool would believe that RC was anything other than a prize plonker who got his own sense of self importance to overpower the club.
I believe he bought the land that is now flats as his own private company and sold onto the club at a profit. He also (and the article refers to this) left us in financial doo doo. Also, let’s not forget that Mike Walker and Martin O’Neil left due to lack of ambition. There’s no doubt he made money on transfers but didn’t use the money wisely. And let’s not forget his personal vanity profile project of Radio Canary.
I’ve still got my “Chase out” mug. Since he’s your hero Chris, do you want to buy it (so you can smash it!) for £20?
Hi Jim
I managed to blag a *Football in the Community* mug from Mendy about 20 years ago which I’ve still got but never managed to get my paws on a *Chase Out* one.
Wanna swap?
No, I thought you wouldn’t 🙂
Sorry Martin, no chance!
Hi Chris
You’re a crafty so ‘n’ so – I can’t tell whether this article is designed to be provocative or genuinely full of praise for the large gentleman with the bright red braces – which is a sure sign of a well-crafted opinion piece of course.
The case for the prosecution is far too lengthy to be addressed in full from the MFW lecturn but, in summary:
# I don’t like having police horses used against me. Norfolk didn’t possess any in 1994/5 [still doesn’t now] so it must have cost the Club a small fortune to to protect Mr Chase from *his own* supporters.
# I have only been in the Directors’ box once in my life. Mr Chase wasn’t there that day [he rarely went to home matches towards the end] so my pal Keith and I had a good chat with Jimmy Jones, God rest his soul, who told us not to worry as it might take a few more weeks but Chase would be stepping down before things escalated even further. JJ was right.
# I don’t see how Chase can claim any credit for profit and loss player trading. He didn’t ever choose a player, Dave Stringer or Mike Walker did that all for him on a budget that was as tight as a shark’s ar$e and that’s pressurised for deep-sea diving.
# When Walker took over from Stringer he had to beg Chase for his only close-season signing, which was Gary Megson on a free.
# The Martin O’Neill acquisition of Dean Windass that never was. Our loss, Leicester’s gain.
# Apocryphal maybe but it comes from a very good source that aforementioned Megson was relieved of his managerial duties while he was on holiday with a letter shoved through his conservatory door.
# One late afternoon myself and a producer mate from Radio Norfolk, David Line, were on the rattler back from Liverpool Street [1st class as my company were paying] and who should plonk himself opposite us but the big man in the braces. This is 1993 and the guy had two mobile phones which he brandished with great gusto. He was very friendly – even offering us free tickets for that very night’s Cup game against Arsenal which we politely declined as I’d already bought mine and David was never into football. He asked us what we’d been doing in London and I explained that David had been helping me and my company out with a staff media training day. As soon as David said he worked for Radio Norfolk out came the London Evening Standard and we were blanked for the rest of the journey, for which we were grateful.
I won’t speculate about why a certain building company were chose to construct the new stand and won nearly every other building tender of that era, but I’ve got a pretty good idea.
Thanks Chris – I’m still not sure of the spirit behind it but I really enjoyed reading it 🙂
Bravo Chris. About time someone corrected the historical facts. Teams’ fortunes always go up and down. When times are good, the helmsman is a hero, in bad times he’s a villain. RC set the self-sustainment model for little old Norwich using his business acumen. He oversaw the most successful playing period in our history and his knowledge of property investment gave Carrow Road a sound financial base upon which to build for decades to come. I remember even Sir Geoffrey was demonised whenever Norwich went through a bad patch – his crime was that he drove a Rolls. Fickle fans indeed.
On a personal note, I remember a business meeting with RC in ’97. He was far from the image held by most Norwich fans: he was amicable, modest, knowledgeable and very open. In fact, a most likeable everyday sort of chap.
I believe he actually walked out on Norwich because of the abuse he and his family were receiving for trying to run a successful footballing business. Be careful what you wish for……..
His totally charmless TV persona and the import of police horses is enough for me.
That photo of Chris Sutton glaring at him as Chase hawked him around like a slave owner sums so much up about his tenure.
The horses were *rented* from the Met. Normally the coppers on Prince of Wales and Riverside are happy to chat but not the mounted branch lot – oh no. Eyes straight ahead, mouths shut and reassuring their horses with many pats on the neck.
They were only doing their job but when they moved forward in a unit they were really quite intimidating – which is what Chase wanted, of course.
I think we also had nags from Nottingham as well on occasion. You’re right, they were intimidating, and in those days no one had thought of rolling ball bearings under their hooves, I’m glad to say.
He ran the club like a businessman and the fans wanted a big spender. Would City have achieved greater and longer success had he invested more in players? Or would the Manchester and Liverpool’s of this world have poached them? Anybody’s guess! He was neither a sinner nor a saint, a good article, well done.
Chase nearly killed the club, and sought to hide the fact from fans and the press for years.
Yes he brought that money in, but spent it at a greater rate.
A good read and although I thought him leaving was a good thing at the time upon reflection we were probably harder on him than he deserved.
I think a point comes when every owner needs to realise the time has come when they can do no more and I think belatedly Chase realised this.
Let’s hope our current owners are going through the same process.
I saw my first City games in the mid-late sixties, and a good number whilst studying in London in the seventies. But in the eighties and nineties a mixture of young family, work and music meant I very rarely saw a game in the Chase era. Pre-internet, and without Norfolk connections, following a club like ours was much harder than it is now. I was able to follow our success in the national press and on radio and MOTD, but that was about it.
There was no EDP or Pink’un online, let alone erudite forums like this one. I knew little of the daily detail we can all access now, only that over a number of years we had somehow become considerably more successful than ever before in our history. From a distance it came as quite a shock when the Chase-out protests became national headlines and it all fell apart.
So I cannot really take an informed view on what happened throughout the Chase era.
Since then nearly everything I have read about this has been negative, presumably because people tend to remember the bitterness with which it ended more than the successes of Mike Walker’s period as manager. So it’s interesting to read at least an attempt to put a positive spin on it.
The list of transfer gains though does not really convince me.
For as long as I’ve supported the club that’s the way we’ve had to work. I just about remember an Irish international, Jimmy Hill, who was sold to Everton; not so many years earlier Mulbarton’s finest, Maurice Norman, had become part of the Spurs double-winning team, and soon after Ron Davies was hitting the heights with the Saints. More recently it’s been Madison, Lewis and Godfrey. Plus ca change as the French say, (though they would put one of those squiggly things on the c of ca).
So in that sense the Chase era really wasn’t different. Moving people on and restocking with new talent has always been key to our success. In fact after developing Bellamy and making a fast buck on Ashton I think it’s no coincidence that our struggles before McNally/Lambert arrived had a lot to do with our failure to keep the conveyor belt of talent moving. Just think of how many of our supposed future stars of that era – Jarvis, Crow, Hayes, Henderson, Eagles, Llewellyn – ended up leaving for lower leagues bringing in diddly squat.
The one thing I can say is this. When we next win promotion to the PL this forum will be full of people demanding that we become an “established” Premier League Club. Nobody actually says how long we need to be there, or where we need to finish in the table, to conclude that we’ve achieved that.
Were we considered established after 5 years at the end of the 79/80 season, even though we had never finished above 10th? Possibly.
The fact is that most successful period we ever had was the 8 seasons from 86/87 to 93/94, 3 top 5 finishes, and fun in Europe when permitted. So something must have been done right.
It’s just sad that the man who came closest to achieving what fans now demand every year, making us an established Premier League force, lost the plot somewhere along the way. Now he is remembered mainly for the troubles he brought upon himself at the end, and the totally unacceptable way he tried to suppress them.
A fine speech – particularly your final paragraph.
Fine speech Keith … ever fancied writing a blog? 🙂
That’s a very fine question. What does ‘established’ mean? I don’t have a good answer. My best punt would be ‘not being on pundits list of favourites to go down’.
You can never ensure survival, but I’d prefer it relegation was a (nasty) surprise, rather than an expectation.
Hi Chris
A very interesting article and take on the Chase regime.
Tim Sherwoid was sold at a profit but to Blackburn Rovers where he was captain the season the won the Premiership.
Chris Sutton I once read was offered a good pay rise to stay at city but told them he wanted out and the only offer on the table was from KD at Blackburn.
In either Delia or Chase is there a difference not much he was open about his ambitions for the club and himself, She is openly not very ambitious if promotion comes then enjoy it while it lasts but don’t spend to prolong it.
Onwards and upwards
OTBC
Stay Safe and keep healthy 🙏
Excellent though provoking article about a time just BS (before sky) and AS (after Sky) when the money started changing the game and smaller clubs could compete at the top end and win cups with the right manager and mainly UK signings and there wasn’t a cliff edge between the top and the second divisions
That list of players would make a brilliant Premier League team today – what talent
Robert Chase his success is undeniable -but different times. Football under Chase was almost a level playing field. Norwich could have (should have, in my opinion) been the best team in the country, but Chase’s did not want that – he wanted a vehicle that still achieved beyond expectation- but was small enough for him to keep close, control and yes I believe (no proof) make a good financial killing out of. I don’t think Chase was a bad person in fact I always felt he wanted to be liked, but he ran out of luck.
Different times but I have always seen similarities with Delia Smith…
l believe she wanted a vehicle that still achieved beyond expectation- but was small enough for her to keep close, control and yes I believe (no proof) make a good financial killing out of. I don’t think Smith is a bad person in fact I always felt she wanted to be liked, but she has often ran out of luck. At the moment is on a lucky streak. However I am pretty sure that a change of manager and director of football will once again demonstrate her chronic lack of investment again. Sound familiar?
Well Chris you certainly put the cat among the pigeons with this article😊 Even the Emoji looks like him !
You may have to bear with the way I word this reply.
I have met Mr Chase on a few occasions and found him to be a very welcoming and seemingly of good character. We used to have some FSA meeting at Carrow Road in the mid nineties and he was an excellent host.
One wet awful night in 1995 he joined us as there were only 3-4 of us in attendance and we discussed our chances of avoiding relegation, he was convinced we would quite easily. It was shortly after a 1-0 loss at Leicester and despite my protestations to the contrary he just couldn’t see it.
We lost 5 of the next 6 games and were duly relegated only a few months after our wonderful European run.
However I learnt shortly after that it was a bit like The Emperor’s Clothes with our esteemed leader. And this information came from people in the know, very close to the board as you say. There was no money left for Martin O’Neil. Had he have known the terrible state of our finances he wouldn’t have signed Matthew Rush ( on a big wage ) that’s for sure.
But, again I have to be careful what I say, had Mr Chase stayed the plans he had would have almost certainly relegated this club to the third tier within two seasons. All of this I can prove. The players he would have released would have been catastrophic, just to save himself.
And when it came to leaving he took money out of the club, around a £150,000 when the incoming administration were borrowing money to tie the club over from heroic local businessmen.
He always said that the sales such as Chris Sutton were in the best interest of the club. His actions on the day he left were not.
The era he over saw was the best in our history of that there is no doubt but it was on the back of the brilliant management of Ken Brown, Dave Stringer and Mike Walker, not the chairman. His bonus system of £800 for a win £1600 for the second win a row and going up for a third consecutive win to £2400 was a great idea. As was his purchase of the land behind the South Stand.
But all in all his decision to take money out of the club that he was ” owed “when we were well and truly skint was unforgivable.
Therefore to me he is definitely a villain.
Fantastic comment Tim.
You’ve gone a fair bit further than I was prepared to but I am sure everything you say is true. His bonus system for the *playing staff* was notorious at the time although I never knew exactly what it constituted until now.
I don’t want to get MFW or myself as an individual into legal trouble so I’ll keep my powder dry [I’d cheerfully tell you what I know in the boozer though :-)] but there was so much going on when the fat controller was in charge that it’s unbelievable.
The purchase of Read’s Flour Mill which Chase was no longer in a position to develop after he was forced out was crucial to our medium-term survival back in he day. That and its surrounding land were bought in the name of NCFC so Chase couldn’t reap the value of it as an individual after his demise. Allegedly.
Funny how quiet he’s been over the last 25 years, hey?
I think the £150k per annum is something that should not be overlooked. Although the land bought around the club effectively gave the club a much needed boost later on, it wouldn’t have done if he had continued with his planned use for that land. It was the fact that the arena was never built that meant we could use it far more effectively
I’ll give you one quote from Chase:
“The problem about Mike (Walker) is that he doesn’t understand money or business because his family only ran a Post Office.”
He did not take over the club until late 1985 when we were in much the position we are in now. We had already strengthened the club with the purchase of Drinkell, Williams, Phelan and ended up winning promotion. At this point Chase sold 2 star players (Woods and Watson) and like the majority of the good deals that you have listed, these players were bought before he came to power (in fact in these cases before he joined the Board). Effectively he took control of the club and sold some of the existing assets. The latter buys were funded by some of the proceeds of the various transfers. We were already heading in the right direction before he took over. In 1994/95 we were 10th in March and had the chance to strengthen the squad in the one position where we needed improving (central midfield), he failed to do so and we were relegated. If he had not bought the land around the ground then we could have improved the squad and earned more money by staying up. The purpose of buying the land was not a good piece of speculation, it was to build an arena. I have no idea how much this would have generated but probably not as much as promotion and this massively reduced our liquidity. Fortunately the land was not developed and it also turned out that it was the bottom of the market as land prices started to recover from their collapse a few years earlier. Meaning that we ended up earning a bit of profit which possibly helped win promotion in 2004. This was luck rather than judgement. Yes we finished well in the League between 1985 and 1994 but the direction of travel was already in the right direction in November 1985. The appointments of Stringer and Walker worked but because we already had the raw materials in place. Some of the other appointments within the club at that time are more concerning in hindsight
What people like to forget is the land Robert chase brought is what the club sold to get us where we are today Robert chase was ahead of his time Norwich has always been a buy low sell high club so Stuart webber has taken that to the next level it’s what keeps the club going forward yes I don’t like to see our best players sold but we always seem to find the next little diamond Stuart webber has just brought us full circle back to where we were under Robert chase
I wouldn’t care to compare Webber with Chase as such. The former has the added gifts of straightforwardness, a little bit of charm, and seems to have nothing to hide from us supporters. He takes his salary and any bonuses that might come his way, of course he does, but Chairman and DoF are entirely different roles.
I’d be surprised if Stuart Webber wrote his own paycheques like Chase did – and that’s quite likely the tip of the iceberg.
All consigned to NCFC history now of course 🙂
I was part of the protests but with an older, less emotional head can see the situation a bit more objectively now. The old fat controller was an astute guy and deserves credit for appointing knowledgeable football people but I don’t believe his motivation was ever really about the club, rather his own ego and personal ambitions.
Ultimately our current inspiring approach isn’t a million miles from Chase’s, but we now have pride and a certain degree of cajones that we never had under Chase. I still believe that Chase was faintly embarrassed by our success and saw it as the “footballing side of the business” getting ideas above their station. Chase’s approach was openly stated to be a Crewe-style lower league incubator for players for “the big clubs”. Success on the pitch was utterly irrelevant. “We have a catchment area of 120,000” (Norfolk’s population at the time was 750,000), “Norwich City will never average over 20,000”, “We have to sell to survive”., the embarrassingly unambitious, tinpot “Main” stand……If he’d tried it at Peterborough he might just have pulled it off, but NCFC was too big for his miserly, negative approach.
In the world of Heroes & Villains, Robert Chase was arguably both.
While there are still certain aspects of Chase’s reign that are not too far removed from the club of today, he was from a different era and arguably last of the breed. An era I might add where Club Chairman were rarely viewed with fondness. Often for good reason.
Business is all about having the right person at the right time and I would say that Chase was the right person. However, as ever, time runs out.
Robert Chase replaced the generally unpopular Sir Arthur South, so in a way he had a head start. For those that took their seat early before the game, South would come on to present a local charity, fete or scheme with a very modest cheque to a chorus of boos. This was generally from the Barclay, who he called Scum after dear old Jimmy Rimmer got hit by a coin, which was either 2p, 5p or 10p, depending on who you believe. Coins were larger then too, but South never got the crowd back. Plus the South era was a bit of a struggle. Chase had to be better, right?
The Chase era statistically is unlikely ever to be bettered and one that younger fans find almost impossible to relate to. Then as now, us Norwich fans would moan. However, this meant moaning about ‘only’ drawing against Man Utd at Old Trafford, for example. Such were the standards of the Chase era. And we were bloody good too.
It is worth pointing out here that we didn’t have fans at that time that actually wanted relegation.
However, things in the Chase era were done on the cheap. A bone of contention with many. All the managers that served under him, were cheap. The kits, were cheap. The ‘City Stand’ – which we used to call the ‘Subbuteo’ stand due to its then underwhelming presence that wouldn’t have looked out of place at Cambridge Utd – was very cheap. And the players were cheap too, but there was probably not a club in the country who achieved so much with so little at the time.
In a sense, the Chase era until the end stages was one of over achievement, yet I’m still unsure how much Chase actually wanted Norwich to be relatively successful. Was it the case he wanted the club to remain in the top flight and got a little bit more than he bargained for? I mean, what would one expect with players that cost £50K, £60K, £80K…?
The way football was changing ultimately exposed Chase as a man that couldn’t go beyond his own limitations and lest we forget, a man that was used to getting his own way, well, most of the time.
One of the times he didn’t was the appointment of Martin O’Neill. The rest of the board outvoted him. O’Neill thought he could trust Chase and work with him, but history proved that not to be the case. While the football we played under O’Neill wasn’t great, it did the job and I believe would have got us back to the top tier. Chase made his job impossible and preferred land to Dean Windass, so O’Neill wasn’t going to stick around. It was a fatal error by Chase.
I was tipped off by a friend closed to the club that Megson was to be the next manager, way before it actually happened – maybe before Gary himself. That was it for me, Chase was done.
While every dog has his day, Chase was a rotund ‘businessman’ in a grey suit. He has us going for a while – quite a while too. He was lucky in many ways, but he made his own luck until his luck ran out.
I will leave the final words to The Guardian, who called him something he would have loved to have been – Sir Robert Chase.
Excellent, InsideRight. Beautifully expressed.
Big thanks to you (and all the other contributors) for your comments – and for everybody keeping the vitriol to a minimum. Much appreciated.