Over the last few years, Norwich City FC have proudly, if quietly, waved the banner of self-financing. All the noise has come from critics, many from within of course. I’m not a fan of the concept myself, but I obviously know that some of you lovely MFW folks and others elsewhere are quite happy with our taking what appears to be an idealistic path.
MFW regular Alex Bain put a question to me the other day as in did I think was it G for Good or B for Bad. I didn’t have a definitive answer so what more can I do other than hand the floor over to Alex himself, as in is the concept working, is it an opus in its infancy or is it doomed a bud never to blossom?
So without further ado, here’s what Blackpool’s finest NCFC supporter has to say on the subject. Take it away Mr B:
Prior to Stuart Webber being appointed to a new hierarchical system, our previous managers had been purchasing over-priced, so-called stars to keep us in the Premier League [the likes of Robbie Brady and Steven Naismith – Martin] but also bought in low-fee players with potential such as James Maddison and Ben Godfrey, while there were already others in the Under-23s making a name for themselves such as Jamal Lewis, Max Aarons and Todd Cantwell alongside the slightly older Murphy twins.
Maddison was sold for £20million to Leicester, Godfrey for £25m+ to Everton, Jacob Murphy for £12m+ to Newcastle, Josh Murphy for £10m+ to Cardiff and Lewis for £15m+ to Newcastle. [sounds like a cool £80 million-plus to me all told – Martin].
So from the outside, all looks good and self-financing looks like it’s working. From the above, only two had a purchase fee against their names, as in Maddison’s £3m from Coventry and Godfrey’s £250k from York City – so large profits even after the sell-on clauses are accounted for.
All those funds are said to have covered big dark holes in the Club’s finances from previous years and have prevented our going to the wall again. So all well and good for self-financing?
Since the new style of management has been in place we have also lost numerous players at a loss or paid them to leave to clear a burden from the wage bill, such as Timm Klose, Tom Trybull, Moritz Leitner and Marco Stiepermann. Josip Drmic is on loan in Croatia and we, it appears, are paying the majority of his wages.
Sebastian Soto, Melvin Sitti, Danel Sinani and Rocky Bushiri were all signed on free transfers or low transfer fees but would most likely have received signing on fees and had their salaries paid by us while on loan, Soto and Sinani are out on loan with an option to buy for the host clubs at the end of the season – neither has seen a first-team game for City, Sitti and Bushiri have both left on free transfers.
Emi Buendia is the shining light for our present recruitment team in an otherwise dark period but that is a poor return for the team against those returns of the previous era.
There was an excellent article in the EDP by MFW’s very own Robin Sainty extolling the virtues of how City are being run in comparison with the background of all the mess at Newcastle. I fully agreed with what Robin said but in a football world of the mega-rich compared to the ultra mega-rich, our self-financing model will never survive.
On opening their new stadium, Daniel Levy announced that Spurs were going to be self-financing with the increased capacity and multi-use of the facilities. The estimated income on a full stadium from food and drink is £800k per game and on top of that, there are shops selling merchandise whenever the stadium is being used.
Estimates vary, but it’s said that this means £25m a season for 10 years. Now that’s self-financing!
I don’t know if City have tried to sell naming rights to the ground. I’d guess not as that would constitute outside investment and we don’t do that.
This summer we spent £50m+ on transfers but got back £30m+ for Buendia and according to recent media reports, there is little in the pot come January as money will be needed in case of relegation.
City have no debt, so we are told, and if we get relegated we wouldn’t be able to service debt. We are also told no one wants relegation and the club is striving for a long-term future in the Premier League. If all of these things are true, then it needs to show ambition. For me, self-financing shows a lack of it
So, there are the thoughts of Alex B. Don’t be shy in telling MFW what you think folks – we always love to hear your views. There’s only one thing I can leave you with really. I hope Alex doesn’t mind as I haven’t asked him.
Great song, great album, great model to run a club by 😉
Hi Martin
I love the line *think I’ll buy me a football team*, which turned out to be pretty prophetic back in 1973!
Roger Waters is a huge Arsenal fan for what little that’s worth 🙂
Cheers
I don’t think NCFC have been quietly waving the banner of self financing or maybe the noise is only heard internally but I’ll be honest I think all clubs should be self financing but the key for any business is to get into a position where enough income can be generated to be sustainable and a business will often need access to cheap cash in order to build up the income. As a club we did this by improving our non-matchday stadium income through catering/conference facilities funded by loans from the owners and we improved the academy funded by the bond scheme. A similarity would be a person taking out a student loan to maximise their working income and then taking out a mortgage to buy a house, nobody would really criticise that person so debt per se is not bad. The majority of our income comes from spending time in the Premier League. This starts off with TV money then parachute money which has been invested in the purchase of Maddison and the development of Aarons et al. The Premier League status also enabled us to sell Buendia for £35m+ as he had a higher profile due to a season in the Premier League, what would he have gone for if we sold him without that? Probably £10m less at least. Webber has made this club self financing (for the short term at least) by appointing a manager who won promotion twice on a relative shoe string. We have not found the magic cure that enables a club to live entirely on Championship level income, we tried that between 2005 and 2010 and that was a disaster never to be repeated. Can a self funding club survive in the Premier League? I would say yes but a lot of investment is needed up front in order to have a squad capable of repeating the success of a lower mid table position. There probably is a self funding club in the Premier League as I don’t think the Glazers put much anything towards the club except for their own personal debt. Going back to Norwich, we will be seeing the accounts for last season within the next few weeks and I don’t think they will make happy reading (mainly Covid related), we will hear the club’s take on this at the AGM but one concern I have is the sheer number of different people I have seen overseeing the financial aspects of the club in the past 5 years. Steve Stone was a good talker who could explain some of the accounting complexities, Ben Dack was less of a talker but also seemed to know his stuff, Ben Kensall had less of a financial background but was seen as a good general manager. We now seem to have the similar kind of vacuum that we had when Moxey was here and that is what really caused the financial issues, so I would hope to see this resolved promptly
Creating a sustainable business by first building up enough funds as you suggest to become self funding would be a great idea but to do that you need the infrastructure to generate income.
The first plan should be to increase match day revenue and that can only happen by either the ground capacity, ticket prices or more places ie bars and restaurants inside the ground.
Sadly bouncing between the premiership and championship as a yo yo club city are living a hand to mouth existence and relying on the parachute payments to survive.
It is now being suggest that these payments stop and a great amount paid to the EFL to be shared to all the 72 clubs so that survival fund could soon end.
In life there are many great ideas that fail and there is the have and have nots and city is viewed as the have nots with no ambition.
Hi John
That’s a very well reasoned take on matters and I’m largely inclined to agree with you – thanks for taking the time to write it – I found it very interesting and I’m sure other readers will too.
The only point you make I would contest is whether or not we have been waving the banner for this approach. I believe we have as I have lost count of the amount of times various NCFC luminaries have proclaimed *we are the only self financing club in the PL*, which by the very nature of the comments asks us, as supporters, to lower our on-field expectations.
That’s how I perceive it anyway.
Thanks – great comment
Simple answer no,maybe a few years ago but now more clubs are being taken over by billionaire’s,that’s not just in the epl by the way.Ncfc have been fortunate lately with always a big player sale but you have to produce at least one every season,who will it be come next summer?Not one player at the moment is worth £30 +,million so that would need 2 of the best players to raise enough funds for the self funding model.Now we all can see what happens when a team lose there 2 best players from the previous season cant we!.To be honest how much wealth the club can muster its nowadays not enough for the championship
Hi Tony
Losing Skippy was nailed on I’m afraid and Emi, having done what he promised, quite understandably went to what he saw as greener pastures.
It seems to me that 75% of our signings are made with an eye to future profit which hardly helps us on the pitch. Not Krul, Gibson, Hanley or Giannoulis of course, but the vast majority of the others.
Thanks – good comment.
In answer to the headline, no. Plus it’s not really self financed. It’s financed by selling the best players to the financially doped clubs and buying unproven replacements.
Self financing or funding is basically selling to survive and as we all know that we’ll drys up sooner than later so what does the future hold ??? To me very bleak.
Hi SC
Short, sweet and to the point.
My view as well.
Thanks
I think you only have to look at the clubs who have become established premiership teams in recent times to realise that it costs a considerable sum with no guarantees. The one glaring statistic is that, apart maybe from Burnley, nobody has done it at the cost levels we are hoping to achieve it at.
The three best examples in recent times are Wolves, Leicester and Villa. We used to be able to compete and beat these teams in the recent past but they have invested heavily by attracting wealthy owners with sums way beyond the abilities of any self funding model.
We appear to have adopted an extremely arrogant point of view that we can build a team capable of matching their stars through the bargain basement of young or undiscovered players. Do we honestly not realise that other better funded clubs are also fishing in these waters and maybe more effectively than we are.
This is indeed fairy tale land as before we can fully utilise the few players of premiership quality we discover the likes of Leicester and Villa snap them up at reasonable prices because of failures in the self funding model necessitating an immediate cash injection.
If we hadn’t have been fortunate to have received parachute payments the self funding model would have collapsed years ago.
Living in Blackpool the Burnley success was tried by the Oysten’s a family much wealthier than our present owners and we can see how that ended.
Garlick the previous Burnley owner always acknowledged that the club needed manageable debt and again he was an owner much wealthier than ours and he supplemented the clubs income plus others on the board also pit their hands in their pockets at times.
Selling the club last season they all got their money back
Hi John
As you’ll know by now I entirely agree with you.
*If we hadn’t have been fortunate to have received parachute payments the self funding model would have collapsed years ago.* is oh, so true.
Cheers
Or we could do a Fulham ,££100m plus and still go down, they are in the deep doodoo if they have a second season in the champ. , and Bournemouth will make either Fulham or WBA take on the lottery of the play offs.
Do we know what City’s match day income is from a home game. Not including TV rights.
On January spending, Aaron’s appears to floating around to he top of a Newcastle wish list, but I would be reluctant to sell to a relegation rival but £50m plus could persuade me and that solves the money pot for some incomings.
Can self funding work , yes, will it work in the EPL with all the Shenanigans around cross sponsorship by rich owners ( we know who they are) running an Arab stallion pulling a large coach through fair play rules , time will tell but it’s stacked against NCFC .
Not sure that Fulham are in the dodoo as you say the American owners are still willing to spend, they are increasing ground capacity and keeping their top players and khan has said he wants a sustainable development and prolonged premiership stay plus he is trying to get NFL games played their and needs a capacity of 55k before it will be considered.
Bournemouth still have rich owners and they haven’t pulled the plug and again they are looking at building a new ground similar to Brighton to increase revenue, last season many top players left and Howe leaving caused problems in returning to the premiership, this season they have built the team and pricing players out of the reach of clubs like city and have a young progressive manager like Farke he has already won a promotion to the premiership.
Hi Bernie
This is the bête noir about the whole thing because as much as I dislike the self funding system, no of course we don’t want to do a Fulham and many, many, of us would agree with that. It’s a fine line to tread.
I don’t know what City’s matchday income is but maybe someone out there could make a very good guess. Not me I’m afraid.
Cross-sponsorship is a whole new debate and as for Financial Fair Play don’t get me started on that – it’s a farce.
Cheers me ole Walrus
Luckily Companies’ House has the financial records listed for previous years.
Generally, excluding player sales, and TV revenue, income is approx…
Tickets: 10M
Media: 0.25M
Catering: 4M
Commercial: 9M
Other: 1.5M
So the club, without selling players, or TV money generates ~25M.
Expenses range between ~50M (at the absolute leanest) to ~110M (PL).
The idea that expanding the stadium to cover costs doesn’t really fly. Doubling the size of the stadium (if you could fill it) would likely only bring in another 5-10M per year.
Thanks for that Dave – I am to accountancy what the Venus de Milo was to sleeves. I’m verging on the numerically illiterate tbh.
That doesn’t mean I don’t get your point about potentially expanding the stadium though. Obviously you’re spot on there.
I have said on here before that sadly, I do not think self-funding can work in the long term Martin.
All it needs to go wrong is a poor coach or Director of Football appointment. Plus a poor recruitment team thus leading to a poor team.
And lets be honest it has happened to us as recently as January 2016. It was supposed to be our big push to survive in the EPL but turned into a millstone.
Only Ivo Pinto was a partial success of the players signed at that time. Timm Klose looked excellent but injuries marred his Norwich City career. And the recruitment team at the time must have noticed he had only played 83 league games in the 5 years before he was signed for his previous clubs.
Matt Jarvis signed around that time likewise made only 78 appearances in 4 years at West Ham. Personally I think we have done it again with Sam Byram. Of course you feel sorry for these players but in the cold light of day for the money and wages they were massive mistakes.
So a poor transfer window can haunt the club for years.
I think Martin that Alex is hard on Tom Trybull and Marco Stieperman as they made very good contributions to the club to help us to that first Farke championship and cost next to nothing.
I would congratulate our recruitment team for that along with, Teemu Pukki, Emi Buendi and Onel Hernandez.
Should we get relegated and our outgoings in the Championship remained at the levels of recent years we would have a £20-30 million hole in the finances at the end of every season. The TV money difference is astronomical.
Look at the previous EPL teams in League One ( Division 3 to me ) who have chased the dream.
But do not get sucked into the belief that is perpetuated by many a prominent City fan that Delia and Michael sell up and that glory days are just around the corner.
Look at Marcus Evans at Ipswich, he put in around a £100 million in his time at the club, look where they are.
Or Portsmouth, taken over by billionaire+ Michael Eisner (of Disney fame) four years ago. Now struggling in the lower reaches of Division 3.
So either way there is no guarantee, but all in all I do not think Self-funding for all its appeal can work long term.
Hi Tim
I never under estimated Trybull and Marco just stated if they were nolonger in the plans they were a burden on an already over loaded wage structure, both will be fondly remember for their time at city.
The point I was trying badly to make is that at an AGM it was mentioned financial errors had been made and they wouldn’t happen again surely paying off so many players in one lump is a financial error and takes money away from a transfer fund and yes their wages till the end of their contracts would still need to be paid but they would have been accounted for it the budget.
I would love to see city self funding but like many supporters it just doesn’t generate enough revenue from matchdays and an extra few million for naming rights could go some way to helping that
Hi Tim
I’ll pick up on just a couple of things. Firstly just one 12-month fallow period with nobody to sell on for megabucks stymies us. Add in a season without parachute payments and we’re well and truly shafted. There’s rumours these payments might be stopped soon anyway.
Secondly my son lives in Portsmouth. While he’s not a massive footy fan he follows City and if I moan about Delia he reminds me just how much the Pompey faithful are turning on Eisner – especially after the other night!
Cheers
Marty, the question you ask is like the old ‘catch 22’ question, ‘answer yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife?’ A simple answer doesn’t reflect the situation. Widen it out to ‘do you want to try and stay in the Prem as a self a self financing club? My answer is NO! And why? We will never be able to compete with the mega clubs who will hoover up the best players/managers. Getting your butt kicked week after week isn’t fun unless you’re masochistic. Anyway I think it’s only a matter of time before an exclusive league is established with membership by invitation.
Hi Cutty
Beat my wife??? There’d only be one winner in that contest and it wouldn’t be me – luckily we’re both non-violent. In public anyway, as you’ve observed 🙂
Seriously I feel that the quicker some kind of exclusive league comes along the better. There might be less money in the game for clubs like ourselves but the playing field would be far more level for those collectively *left behind*.
I’d still go to and enjoy matches and there are many others like me I am sure.
Cheers ole pard.
Marty, of course you don’t beat your wife, and thus you can’t answer the question. Anyone who does wouldn’t want to give the answer, so the question is unanswerable. Which brings us back to your question.
Reminds me of the Monty Python *Philosophy Football* sketch.
I’m sure you’ve seen it but I’ll private mail it soon. If by any chance you haven’t come across it, it’s beyond hilarious.
And what’s that old reggae number There are more Questions than Answers all about then 🙂
Interesting article.
I have impossible to understand that self funding mantra what Norwich manager Farke keeps on using. To me it looks mainly as excuse because premier league is very tough league for Norwich. I dont remember him using that self funding mantra last season when Norwich played in championship. He didnt either spoke anything about parachute money what Norwich got and likely didnt see that as advantage. Now West Bromwich, Fulham and Bournemouth looks to be heading back to premier league once again with their parachute money and not because of whatever funding system. Norwich, Burnley and Watford are 3 clubs what I guess to get relegated, so as you can see there would be 1 new team Burnley playing championhip next season. I suppose they get parachute money at least couple of seasons, so it would be completely under preforming to not get back to premier league. Is it interesting to any other than Burnley fans? No. Idiotic system which kills all interest.
I have thought that Maddison and Godfrey were Norwich prospects, because of Norwich fans comments. They are Coventry and York products which Norwich bought because they are financially stronger than those 2 clubs. Now you see, its basically pathetic that Farke complains all the time Norwich lack of money. Norwich is nowhere near of financially weakest clubs in England. Has San Marino manager been complaining every time they play qualification game, how much less football players they actually have than others? No one wants to listen that and he knows it.
Hi 1×2
As I’ve said to you before it’s always good to get some perspective from a genuine [and most welcome] *outsider*.
Farke continues with this mantra because it suits him as in – don’t expect too much in the EPL Norwich supporters, we’re only a little self-funding club. It’s a good way to make many excuses in some ways although I think he always hopes for success deep down. Whether or not he will ever achieve this or not in the PL is questionable.
To be brutally honest it is very difficult for Norwich to compete at this level.
Kiitos
A lot of what you say is probably true 1X2, and I am particularly interested in your remarks about San Marino. I have thought for many years that International football is badly managed.
Countries like San Marino, Gibraltar, Malta, some of the former Eastern-Bloc countries, Africans, et als, should not just be cannon fodder for the likes of Spain, Italy, Germany, England etcetera.
Smaller countries should play in their own graded World Cup qualifying groups, with the prize being that each group winner should then get to play in the World Cup actual.
It would be a way for the small countries, to meet the technically-clever bigger countries at the pinnacle of international football.
The better small countries would then be more capable – and therefore more likely – to actually reach the World Cup finals.
Which is what actually has happened twice now, when Norwich got promoted to the Premiership.
It is called competitive sport for a reason mate!
OTBC !!
Hi Kev
That’s a fantastic way to look at it and one I’ve never considered in any detail myself. You’re quite right, of course.
Sport is and should be competitive to the hilt – I don’t think I’ve ever played a game of football or cricket when I haven’t wanted to end on the winning team.
I played a lot of tennis as a youngster too and whereas I could quickly and cheerfully get over a doubles loss, the aftermath from losing in singles – which I often did – would stay with me for quite some time.
Thanks – one of many great comments today.
Thanks Martin, kind words!
I will back that up by agreeing with your words regarding the calibre of comments on this site – always thought-provoking and a good cross-section of views.
Now go put your hands in an ice-bucket after all those replies you’ve typed today!
OTBC !!
It’s so cold in Mundesley that I don’t need the ice bucket 🙂
I love the idea of the club being self financing. We all love an underdog and remember Wrexham beating Arsenal and Coventry losing to Sutton Utd, so the idea of clubs owned by oil rich countries being out performed by a club owned by someone who made decent money from telling people how to boil eggs is, in theory, attractive.
I think it was you, MP, who said that the ownership model has become a mill stone round the neck of the club. I don’t disagree, but I don’t see how we are ever going to be competitive with the top of the Prem. If we were bought by a massively wealthy individual, or a country or an American hedge fund (!), I doubt many top players would find the Norfolk Broads and NR1 a more attractive proposition than the possibility of trophy winning glory in London or the North West.
Perhaps it’s now the case that, whatever the ownership model, the best we can hope for is a prolonged Premier League presence without ever challenging for anything, like Palace, Brighton, Burnley or Wolves. Either that, or continuing as a yoyo club, enjoying our Championship seasons and annoying the twerps from talkShi7e and Robbie Savage by our mere presence in the Prem.
I don’t think our ownership model is necessarily the problem, I think the EPL model is. And that isn’t going to change any time soon.
Hi Don
Love the first paragraph!
I could make a political analogy to your *PL and the rest* thoughts but I like writing for MFW so I think I’ll leave that idea alone 🙂
You’re quite right of course. It’s pre-ordained there will never be a place at the top table for ourselves, Palace, Brighton, Burnley and to a slightly lesser extent Wolves.
And that’s just what the rotund felines want.
I know of a pub known as the rotund feline – it’s quite good, I understand.
Cheers
I find some of the company there to be most convivial
Especially Buddy – talk about chilled 🙂
The less money you have the luckier you need to be.
Are we feeling lucky?
Ha!
That’s a good one to ponder.
Cheers
Forgive me for saying so but I think this is something of a sterile discussion. Norwich are self-financing because we don’t have a practical alternative beyond borrowing lots and rolling the dice (been there done that).
We aren’t an attractive proposition for massive foreign investment, there isn’t the local population to entice significant growth in support or of a high enough profile to be noticed by a global audience. I know there are exceptions to this (Bournemouth for one) but the odds of finding a significant investor – morally ambiguous or otherwise – don’t look good.
I don’t blame the club for making a virtue out of a necessity but let’s not kid ourselves about reality.
Oh, and in answer to the title of the article – Probably not, and frankly I’m not sure I’m even that bothered.
Hi Bruce C
I think that the question you have posed about alternative funding not being available due to cities location and population seems off the mark.
To get alternative funding or investment you need to be open for business and over the years the closed signs have been up, it was mentioned years ago that maybe it was our owners placing conditions to investers that turned people away and others say that a failure to sell the club previously has made them wary of investment we will never no the truth.
City have 25+k ST holders and a waiting list for any that becomes available so there is room for city to be successful and entice big global brands it just needs those companies to look deeper
Hi Bruce
I get your drift but if we all agree [as we surely do] that being the best we can be is our ultimate aim I guess that leaves a pretty large ? as in how close to this are we and at which point to do we shoulder arms and say that the yo-yo situation is a positive achievement?
Not sure I totally agree with your geographical comment either, although I understand the thought behind it.
Thanks – good comment.
Hi Alex and Martin, a good take on that most thorny of subjects. A ‘topic’ I believe will be revisited with more and more regularity and vigour over the coming months.
From numerous conversations with fellow supporters it is clear to me that there are serious misgivings surrounding the self funding model’. Whereas smaller clubs such as Watford and Brentford can comfortably hold on to their promotion talisman, we have no option but to flog ours off before the market even opens the gates. This move has drastically reduced the teams effectiveness and pulled the rug from under the managers feet, yet again.
Don’t listen to all the nonsense surrounding the sale of buendia. He was a professional footballer on a lucrative long term contract and was in no position to withdraw his labour. That is a move which would harm his own career irreparably. It was Norwich city’s desire to cash in which drove the transfer, purely and simply.
During the previous era of unprecedented success, the chairman was driven from the club, mainly due to the perceived constant selling of the best playing assets and lack of reinvestment. The self same thing that some people are deifying delia smith for,
Bizarre.
In the intervening twenty plus years we have, by the skin of our teeth, staved off bankruptcy on more than one occasion and dropped into the third tier of English football. Along the way we have utilised player sales and land purchase by the previous regime to haul our backside out of the fire. Well run?
With the news emanating from Newcastle we are now faced with two extremes of football ownership. One whose stated aim is to use a sovereign nations wealth to simply buy football and one, which intends to hang onto a club with the aim of creating a family heirloom. Neither is particularly edifying.
People point8ng at Fulham or West Brom or indeed Bournemouth are ignoring the fact. These clubs can afford to fail and will simply come back again, buoyed by their ownership. We cannot afford failure. Without the premier league wealth that the smiths so despise our revenue streams become a trickle, in spite of our larger than average support base. If the yo-yo string breaks at the bottom of its trajectory that’s us, done. A situation akin to the many lean years in the immediate aftermath of the change of ownership. The struggle at premier league level will soon be put into stark focus by a similar struggle at championship level. Some don’t care as long as our virtuous existence is maintained. Taking the moral high ground while the rest of football climbs over us to try and be the best they can.
Norwich would never consider that dirty Saudi money washing through its coffers. With all the connotations that go with doing business with that much maligned desert nation. That is until Rio Ferdinand gets his stated wish and his newest client signs on the dotted line for the magpies for 30 million quid, perhaps in January. Would we turn down a deal on principle?
I’m still clinging to the hope that farke can pull some miracle off with one hand tied behind his back and earn us another tilt at the top table. As a mere supporter of the club I’m not interested in the hoopla in the directors box, or the off the field vanity projects. More so the prestige and kudos the club, City, county and indeed region get from having a gold standard, elite football club. Whisper it but perhaps one that could emulate old builder bobs incantation and create some history, a cup maybe?
A simple game football. The vast majority of fans just want a winning team to be proud of and to earn some bragging rights. Over the last twenty years however, the game has moved on at a ridiculous rate. Why oh why do we have to be the one that swims against the inexorable tide collecting derision, scorn and humiliation along the way?
It’s done, the question is when, and how painful the endgame will be.
Hi Chris
*We cannot afford failure*.
It seems like we cannot afford success either, albeit in a slightly different context.
*Why oh why do we have to be the one that swims against the inexorable tide collecting derision, scorn and humiliation along the way*?
I could answer that but I’m far too polite to do so on a public forum 🙂
Thanks mate – terrific comment.
Hi Chris
Mentioning the evil C name will cause apoplectic fits and laughter in equal amounts.
City is on a self financing slippery slope whether it be the owners not wanting outside investment or soon to be Webber departure to bigger and better things be it in football or another line of work and only time will tell.
Alias Smith and Jones have a plaything that continues to keep their celeb status alive and no matter how much you enjoy a much loved toy there comes a time you have to let go especially when you can no longer afford the spiralling costs of maintenance.
Since they got the club football has changed in all ways possibly and city hasn’t kept pace with it, sitting in an ivory tower ignoring the changing world around you is sad but thinking your way is the only way is just plain daft
Hello Alex. I realised that mentioning the C word would cause some consternation but if you’re going to put a cat amongst the pigeons make it a big bugger!
Whether people like it or not we were a big deal back then and but for wretched Liverpool and it’s following would have had several seasons of European football behind us.
Webber’s impending departure, the crass inheritance plan drawing ever closer, the likelihood of yet another relegation are reasons for the support to get active and start asking questions. Sheep like acceptance of all this will lead to a disaster.
Yer won’t find a bigger bugger than Bob the builder.
I know that for sure, I met him over 25 years ago on the rattler home from Liverpool Street. Me and my then Radio Norfolk mate David L spent 90 minutes trapped on a four-seat with him.
It was the original *shall we get off at Colchester and wait for the next one*? decision.
Wanting to get back to Blofield for a late tea, we chose wrong.
When you realize that Stuart Webber has been at the club 4.5 years and has only sold one of his signings for any real profit (and 4 total), it becomes obvious we have one plan. Premier League money.
Hi Dave
Until that runs out bud, until that runs out.
Cheers
I’m struggling to remember the other 3 maybe Serbyn was one Heise but not sure
If Transfermarkt is correct:
Buendia
Franke
Srbney
Watkins
Obviously only one player of note bought and sold in 4.5 years is not a strategy for sustainability.
Yeah that’s about right plus Philip Heise and a substantial sprinkling of under 23s who have yet to make a mark at under 23 level [with the honourable exception of Bali Mumba from Sunderland of course].
Looks to me that Heise wasn’t sold, but his contract was terminated.
https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/left-back-seals-permanent-canaries-exit-8052020
Fair point about Heise, Dave. I thought we got a nominal for him but obviously not. And we’ve yet to sell on Mumba of course.
My bad.
Why don’t you lot all go and support another team? Constantly moaning about the same old issue and regurgitating the same old articles and comments……
We are the currently the 20th best team in the country. Last season we were 21st.
Clubs which would happily swap places with us in the EFL – 72.
Squad value on the transfer market – £100m+ (conservative)
Season ticket holders – 25,000+
We own our own ground; we own our own training ground; we have Academy One status.
We are respected by Spurs, Chelsea, Man Utd as places where their young talent can progress.
According to Transfermkt we have more internationals in our squad than Arsenal and the 7th most overall. (You might want to read that again, but I have checked it and it’s true.) Who says players don’t want to come to Norwich?
Given where we were 4 years ago when Webber and Farke took over, I would say we have progressed quite nicely. Stop listening to Talksport and reading the Daily Mail and use your brains.
Then wear your shirt with pride, scream OTBC at the top of your voice and thank the Lord you weren’t born near Ipswich. Fleetwood at home this week.
Hi sgnfc
I’m hoping a couple of lines in there are tongue in cheek.
Personally I’m pleased that you think NCFC are doing everything they possibly can to ensure our survival in the PL. Maybe they are. I’m not at the fulcrum so I can’t be certain. But I can see Ariadne’s spinning wheel starting to get to the point whereby a splash of olive oil is no longer enough to keep it functioning.
Your views are always both interesting and extremely welcome.
But, perleese, I do NOT read the Daily Mail for reasons I’m sure you’ll understand 🙂
Cheers!
Not sure you really understand an open debate
No one is moaning and as city supporters we have had a lot to moan about over the years.
The fan base and ST holders are second to none and the article is asking for honest opinions to be expressed about our self financing model and if it works or not.
Telling someone to go and supporter another club because you don’t like an article or comment isn’t nice and I respect what you say about being the 20th top club in the league but with the correct funding we could be so much better
But Martin and Alex – we’ve had this debate sooooo many times and on soooo many platforms. You refer to “the correct funding”. What is that exactly?
Until D & M decide to sell their shares, there is no alternative funding. Our only choice is what we have and we’ve never had anything else,
Seriously – without the beneficent Norwich supporting billionaire coming along, what are you suggesting is “correct funding”? (Bearing in mind that we’ve just spent £50m and another £25m if we do manage to stay up; having lost £30m or so to Covid).
I agree with you that the debate is hardly original but it’s one that will never go away until something changes to move the discussion in a different direction.
When Alex refers to *correct funding* I would think that he refers to outside investment – I’m sure he’ll tell us if I’m wrong!
Correct Funding can come in many was outside investment, New Ownersor new board members will to cover any short fall in revenue but all or any of that means less control by our present owners and I am not sure even after all these baron years of real success they would contemplate giving up and sort of control
Hi Martin,
“Is there room for a self-financing football club in the Premier League of the 2020s?” – in effect, YES, as we are there, and have been there before!
Alternatively – Is a self-financing football club welcome in the Premier League of the 2020s? – there is an obvious answer staring us in the face, screaming in our ears … NO … that is what all the noise from pundits, commentators, and hate-delivering media trolls is about in our case – a couple of football aficionados even relegated us after 5 or 6 matches this season!
Vast expenditure on pricey footballers and razmattaz stadiums with slick global marketing images is what the Premiership is about, and the ‘newer’ Premiership clubs are expected to have deep pockets to compete and stay, it is debatable whether the term ‘cash cow’ relates to football clubs any more.
In my opinion, the crashed European Super League was just an indication of ‘shouting-up’ crowds to cover up massive debt – several European clubs are trailing big debts like old, unkempt cargo vessels tend to trail seaweed! Perhaps pertinent to mention Barca and Lionel Messi here?
Portsmouth – Pompey Supporter’s Trust ran the effectively bankrupt club for several years and the club is still trying to get back to the higher leagues. A proud club with an illustrious past, they got into debt partly by ‘chasing the dream’.
Further back in time Bradford Park Avenue, established in 1907, ceased to exist in 1974 due to £57,652 debt and no more cash injections – a few quid in some top clubs’ petty cash tins these days! The reformed club play in the National League – Northern, now.
I believe we will stay up as self-funding is the only way to go for many clubs below Premiership level, and we are exceptionally good at conducting our affairs in that way. courtesy of Webber, Farke’s football brain, Delia and Michael, and a great squad gradually improving. Many clubs in the Championship (and elsewhere!) look at our self-funding model with great interest.
Over the next few seasons many clubs below the Premiership will probably follow our lead, aiming higher while keeping costs down. If the muck really hits the fan, some higher clubs could have to embrace their own reality as well The self-financing method seems to work to me., I don’t see why some people reject it – if football is the sport of ‘the people’ that is!.
Self-financing is a reality check – that’s maybe why we have so many loud detractors these days.
COYY !!
Hi again Kev
Don’t get me wrong here – I’d love to see some of the REALLY big boys come crashing down to earth a la Icarus.
But there is such a cartel within the Premier League that I see this as highly unlikely. Look at the relationships between the banks and the UK government [whoever is in power] if you will. Don’t worry, I’m not taking that one any further 🙂
Bradford PA, the old school Barrow and/or Accrington are long forgotten now in terms of what happened to them at the time but I just about remember. Southport and Stockport County also took similar nosedives and I am sure there are others too.
As for football being the people’s game I was born in 1957 and I swear no supporters cared much about the finances within the game until the 1980s.
Believe me, I would welcome those days back. But they seem to be long gone now and highly unlikely to return.
As the now individually multi millionaires in Pink Floyd said back in ’73: money is the root of all evil today. Ad nearly 50 years on, they weren’t wrong.
Thanks as always.
Hi KevH
Great comments
Hand on heart I Martin and myself would love to see this self financing work but it has been said many times you need a sound financial base to start with.
City are running like a few cars recently on fumes if it wasn’t for promotion and parachute payments we could have been were Bury is now or would our esteemed owner have done a Derby County owner run to the administrator to save their bacon.
I am not sure what cities requirements are to run it for a season but others have given figures above that says we are 50% short of those needs to the EPL TV rights and selling players and parachute payments are saving the club from oblivion so once that is taken in to consideration were is there next to go.
I am old enough to remember going to Carrow Rd on a Saturday when it had 10k of supporters and if we get to the time when like Ipswich we spend time out of the top 2 leagues the ST holders will find better things to spend their cash on.
City need to up the anti on incoming revenue and do it soon before league one comes calling, playing at being a football club owner that has been luck in taking advice to save the club only last so long as does telling people how to boil an egg
It does, and has to, work Alex,
There is no alternative available to the club anyway, with no big money to be had other than by the current scenario.
Newcastle have just seized a big opportunity to move on – and it is as toxic as hell with human rights abusers in the ownership mix!
As you have just said…
“…others have given figures above that say we are 50% short … the EPL TV rights and selling players and parachute payments are saving the club from oblivion so once that is taken into consideration where is there next to go…”
There is nobody waiting to step up with a big cheque book to replace the current method and the club, the fans, are indeed fortunate that somebody had the common sense to develop the self-financing route – it has given us what we have, which is a massive chance to stay in the Premiership!
I don’t think self-financing will continue forever, but climbing is always preferable to drowning! The squad is playing positive football again, the fans have got to be happy about that.
PS – Mundesley hey Martin? So close to the Arctic Circle, do you hear wolves baying in the dark as you hurry home from your local boozer at night?
Cheers all!
OTBC !!
Ha!
No wolves a-baying but we do get various types of deer around the Rec and much further afield as they go out for their dawn or dusk feeds from the bushes and any undergrowth they take a shine to.
Geezer our senior terrier takes exception to their activities and never fails to send them away. If I were to let him off the lead in that location it wouldn’t end well – he and his sidekick Minnie the Russell have got previous for anti-muntjac activity so he’s out on parole.
Let them off the lead on Trimingham beach though and they ignore absolutely everything except themselves!
Don’t want a billionaire owner. Don’t want to join the elite. They have, to all intent/purpose isolated themselves from the rest of us anyway. Have enjoyed the Farke/Webber era immensely. Think bringing them in was brave and has been a huge success (see sgncfc above). The EPL is increasingly up it’s own backside. Joining them at their own game is just another FU to the football league –
To all those other communities of supporters who love their clubs. There is plenty of brown stuff about to hit the fan in many areas of life. Football too sadly.
Hi Richard
I’ve very much enjoyed the Webber/Farke era myself. I gather that Ed Balls was largely responsible for suggesting Webber in the first place so we’ve got a lot to thank Ed for!
Despite my lack of empathy with the self financing concept I can certainly agree whole heartedly when you say: *The EPL is increasingly up it’s own backside*!
Cheers
Hi Richard
Smith and Jones took the club into self-isolation well before the pandemic started I am sorry to say.
Praise must go to Ed Balls for convincing, along with heir apparent, to go along with this plan.
Webber and Farke have made it work to some degree of success on limited resources.
The problem is that it needs to be continuously upgraded like any idea but it seems that the owners have raised the draw bridge and have dug in, hoping that it will solve the problems.
Until they open up to outside investment these discussions will continue. No one wants another Chase or a Morris like Derby but with all the goodwill in the world, they must realise that self-financing can work but only if you have the revenue coming in to pay the outgoing bills.
Sadly that self financing model also needs someone with deep pockets to bail it out if and when needed.
Thanks for so many great comments
Understand your view Alex. But I think the money in the game is at this level is a farce. You can’t take it seriously. At some point you have to accept that this model doesn’t work for the majority of UK football clubs. Let the greed and the gap rip until its destroyed itself. I know. But.
It’s true, of course, that Lewis, Godfrey and Maddison were acquired in the pre-Webber era, but it was under the Webber model that they became regulars in the first team.
It is part of Farke’s job description that he must use players from our ‘production line’’ — as demonstrated by going to that Suffolk club early in 18-19, before any momentum had built, giving Aarons his debut and finishing the game with Aarons, Godfrey and Lewis in our backline.
Also, it was Webber who got such high fees for Maddison, Lewis and Godfrey, before making Buendia the most expensive player signed after a season in the Championship.
So, when assessing how well Webber is doing at making our club self-sustaining, it is wrong to ignore the Maddison, Lewis and Godfrey sales and give the crefit for them entirely to the regime who signed them.
So many people (including third parties) are involved in every football transfer that, in the past, City have accepted what I’ve thought were cut-price deals so as to get them completed, From that perspective, I think one of Webber’’s greatest attributes is to persuade everyone to agree to deals thst are astonishingly lucrative for us.
Hi Mick
Thanks for highlighting that Godfrey, Lewis and Madders were brought through courtesy of Webber and Farke. Absolutely true.
Although the thoughts here are those of Alex B rather than myself, I am sure we would both question how long this process might be able to continue in the medium to long term.
One or more importantly two consecutive fallow seasons in terms of player sales and we could be in huge trouble. Max will go next of course. Will Andrew Omobamidele be the one to leave sometime in 2023? I can’t think of anybody else with a value right now.
Meanwhile Todd Cantwell’s value is falling like a stone.
Stuart Webber has done some amazing business but he cannot sell that which nobody actively wants to buy. That said I hope SW remains with us for a long, long time.
Not too sure that he will though!
I find it a bizarre argument martin. Is he suggesting that lewis and aarons should have debuted at the age of 16? They were picked as soon as they were ready. Simply because they were the best players available. To give the credit to self funding is just plain wrong.
Yeah the concept is lacking as today’s result – and performance – proved.
Sometimes it’s a case of head against wall and for me the wall is winning.
Non-entities like us can do nothing about it beyond shouting into the void.
Hi Mick
My comments on the sale of Maddison and Godfrey was more about Webber and Farke being lucky to have such saleable players in house when they arrived and the same with Lewis and SW did a great job getting the value he did.
As we previous owners at other clubs the production line isn’t never ending and at some time in the future other ways to finance the club will be needed and surely that should be from strength not from a weak point when we are struggling to make ends meet
Please can someone explain to me (I am a fan) how we are self financing? The majority of the money either comes from TV or from other clubs. We are a small club that survives by selling players at a profit – who will buy this years buys for a profit ?? and with TV money.
Titles and cups have always has been (with a few exceptions – do not say Leicester as they are very wealthy) with those with the most money and we have never been in that group (yes we have been in the Championship but what if we stop yo-yo ing?) and in reality will never be as we even if Delia sells get the sort of money Newcastle have. Where does that leave us ? Football is meant to be entertainment and is that watching us in the EPL the last few times we were there – the league has changed since its early days and we will never reach the heights again – unless the superleague does happen – it might be for the best for Norwich.
Hi Nigel
I wish I could explain but if I’m honest with myself I cannot.
All I can say is that if you get owners with their own peculiar take on matters who have entrenched themselves you have to rub along with their ideology or go support somebody else, when they know full well none of us would ever do that.
Some of us like this situation and some of us don’t. End of, really.
Thanks
The conundrum is and always will be clubs like city trying to swim against the financial haves.
Will we see an EPL 2 with a better distribution of the wealth not in my life time.
Will we see ESL according to the Marcia in Spain Barcelona and R Madrid are still in talks with Juve and their American backers to come up with an acceptable solution so it can go ahead.
Will an ESL help city only if the top 6 leave the EPL permanently and even with their wealth they will not want that it will be bad business all round no one will want to view an EPL without those teams.
Are there richer people willing to invest in City that is the question that needs answering but sadly under these owners we will not find out
Hi Nigel,
I’d love a breakdown of that too – the below link will help you form your own opinion…
https://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/norwich-city/webber-on-finances-1408266
…if you paste this in a new web-page, this will explain most of what you asked – and it comes from the lips of our ‘main man’ Stuart Webber!
Cheers,
COYY !!