I need to be careful how I word this.
I (and some of my MFW brethren) have been accused in the last week of being overly focused on City winning, of having unrealistically lofty expectations for the Club, and of being professional miserabilists.
So……
On second thoughts, if you’re one of those people, look away now. There’s going to be nothing careful about this.
David Wagner was happy with what he saw yesterday. He was “pleased with the performance” and lauded the fighting spirit and togetherness.
On this occasion, I disagree with the head coach’s analysis. Big time.
While I get his sentiment around the fighting spirit and togetherness – qualities that tend to be at the fore when you’ve ground out a goalless draw away from home against an in-form team – had it not been for a goalkeeping performance par excellence from Angus Gunn the afternoon would have had a very different feel.
Okay, so Angus did what he’s paid to do, (‘that’s what goalkeepers are there for’ etc) but this was no team effort from a back-four who performed heroically to protect their keeper, and a keeper who just did what he had to do when the defences were breached.
This was Angus vs Stoke City. Said back four did little to protect him otherwise he’d not have had to make eight saves some of which were point-blank.
So let’s not try and dress this up as a sterling defensive performance when the heroics were all performed by one player.
It’s also right to acknowledge at this juncture, that Stoke were good – just as we expected them to be. Alex Neil is finally getting a tune out of his squad and there were few more difficult places to have to go yesterday afternoon than the Bet 365.
After having watched them beat Blackburn and draw away at Middlesbrough in the last couple of weeks it was always destined to be a tough afternoon. We knew it was coming. What was surprising, however, was how Wagner set them up to tackle said tough afternoon.
Few, if any, expected the strategy to be a 1970s-style 4-4-2 with those two banks of four sitting deep and inviting Stoke on to try and break us down – in modern parlance, a low block; to those of us a certain age, a ‘Mike Bassett’.
As if to accentuate the defensive nature of this particular 4-4-2, Wagner opted for, effectively, two right-backs, with Lungi Sorensen slotting into the space that’s normally Max Aarons’, and Max being utilised in the space in front of him.
Unsurprisingly, it didn’t work. Sorensen was hooked at halftime after having spent most of the first half bouncing off Tyrese Campbell, who not only had him on toast, but also on bread, on crackers and on pizza.
It was a very tough watch, in particular the part where Campbell had both Aarons and Sorensen bouncing off him before setting up Will Smallbone for a chance that ended up being part of the Gunn showreel.
Excruciating.
But Lungi was far from alone. Across the board, we struggled to compete with them physically, failing to match their pace, their power, and their hunger – all of which have been constant failings of this group for the last few seasons.
What I didn’t expect was for us also to be inferior from a technical perspective.
As tends to be the wont of a 4-4-2, the opportunities to play from the back are limited, so we were greeted to the sight of, more often than not, Grant Hanley and Ben Gibson launching it long and into the channels – an unedifying sight at the best of times but especially when your footballing brain, since 2017, has been conditioned to the beauty of Farke-ball.
But it was worse than that because from said hoofs, the ball simply wouldn’t stick. While, as we know, Teemu Pukki is happy to run the channels all day long, he likes those balls to be subtle and threaded so he has a chance of retaining possession or getting a run on goal.
Teemu’s not your man though if you’re launching it 50 yards and expecting him to grapple with a 6’6″ centre-back. Nor if you’re launching it from distance and he has his back to goal.
In theory, Josh Sargent is more suited to both of those tasks but not when he’s going through a spell where he’d struggle to control a bag of cement.
So we ended up with defenders who were overrun but who, when they had the ball, were happy to go long. We had a midfield that was bullied, overrun and unable to string two consecutive passes together, and twin strikers who were feeding off scraps and doing so very badly.
Make of that what you will.
They were wearing yellow and green shirts but looked nothing like the Norwich City that we know.
The two positives were, of course, a point against a good side and the performance of Angus – and I get that for some that’s more than enough. I also get that there was an element of Wagner having to make do because of the injury problems we’re experiencing, but please don’t let this be the blueprint for the future.
We were sold on Wagner because he sold us a vision of a team that plays breathless, high-tempo possession-based football. But this certainly wasn’t it. This was its antithesis.
But, it was a point and, as mad as it seems, we are still only three points shy of the playoff places.
Whether or not this team is good enough to make, and then succeed, in the playoffs continues to look highly doubtful, but for the playoffs we must aim. A quick peek at the Club’s accounts tells you as much.
And as brutal as another season in the Premier League would be, for the Club not to get there would be to condemn it to a very uncertain financial future.
With a two-week break incoming, we’d better hope this particular reset is more successful than the one Dean Smith promised us during the World Cup break.
The managers statement sums up what is wrong with this club excepting mediocrity and dressing it up as good Angus excused 3 out of four unacceptable performances away from home have we turned corner under wagner no chance.
Welcome to mid table Chumpship, I see Burnley got a taste of what awaits them next season.
Meanwhile 4th in premiership, 9th richest club in the world, and all is woe and thrice woe (Spurs). It’s those dastardly owners of course.
Spurs one of the highest spends last summer all wanted by Conte and he blames the owners for not wanting success, he is a cheque book manager and none of those players have progressed under him.
Wagner has inherited a squad lacking fitness and confidence after relegation and loaned in a Brazilian from Arse-nal.
Are we seeing the coach trying to recoach a team that Smith & Shakespeare never improved in anyway or is it decision have been made about the squad for next summer and Wagner is having to abide by those decisi9ns
It truly is worrying Gary!
We’ve all come to love Norwich’s interpretation of the ‘beautiful game’, and I really think David Wagner epitomises that as much as Daniel Farke did.
What happened to the approach we saw a week ago when Sorensen scored from a well practiced set piece, and we outran and out-manoeuvred a gritty, spiky, hard-working Millwall side who were very impressed by us – I know that for sure because two of their fans who were present have told me so. They practically frothed at the mouth over Sara’s masterpiece!
We need a shot of energy, desire, and self-belief really quickly. If not, we will be consumed by permanent Championship status and the need to sell most of the squad – unedifying if Ipswich drag their soggy asses up from League 1.
Why does this squad fall so low so quickly? Do they, (1) know what’s coming in the close season, (2) get sick of hearing repetitious criticism from fan sites, or do they (3) simply lose their faith?
Have they (4) had enough of hearing about valuations of individual players when there’s a financial black hole gathering around the club, or (5) realised that Delia’s barbeque sauce actually comes bulk-buy from Lidl’s, or is it that (6) they just don’t want to engage their opponents in tough battles?
I really hope they dig their way out of this slump and finish the season strongly, seeing what they can do feeds the hope that they continue to do it.
COYYs !
Agree with a lot of this.
Suprised that Wagner set us up like that, but I understand that needs must sometimes. I hope this was an isolated incident or at the worst a short term means to an end.
Having made the journey to Stoke Yesterday I can say that it felt nothing like a secure defensive performance, so I don’t know why Wagner was happy with the performance, as you’ve said Gunn got us that point. Another day or another keep means that it was a 2,3 or 4 nil loss.
The club is at pretty horrible crossroads…. The risk of Championship wilderness or Premier League brutality, neither is desirable.
Then there is the question of where we stand with Webber and what he is trying to achieve. Personally I think he is staying in the hope that he can get us promoted and survive a PL season before sticking two fingers up to the naysayers and hiking of into the sunset. The trouble is I’m not so certain that is going to happen and I don’t think Delia & co have the guts to call time on him, they are just grateful he’s still here.
We need to get back to Plan A, have a consistent playing style, recruit for it and make future appointments in line with it. Smith was a failure as was the attempt to shift to a 433 set up. God knows how this ends up.
Shortest highlights package of the season so far. Even with clever editing the official sky highlights package is just over ,2 mins.
BBC radio Stoke commentary team could not work out Norwich s style or raisin d’ etre, They concluded out performance was disappointing .
“BBC radio Stoke commentary team could not work out Norwich s style or raisin d’ etre,”…
And unfortunately Bernard, neither could the NCFC fans who travelled, nor I suspect ANYONE from the club who was there….
How sad the depths to which we have fallen so quickly….and there is no discernible system to improve things!
O T B C
Angus Gunns sudden liking for haggis can be thanked for earning hs a point. As Gary states, it really was Angus v stoke at times.
The international call uo has perhaps added an extra layer of confidence to his game.
Following Sargents profligacy early in the piece we sank into our “low block” so much so that we offended alex Neil’s memory of his old club apparently.
Regarding Sargent, would it be unkind to suggest that he appeared far more motivated before the world Cup than he is now?
Motivation generally seems to be a problem.at the club. Does anybody actually care?
Even so, let’s take a point. I had us down for a pasting.
I too was “surprised” by DW’s comments that he was pleased with what he saw yesterday at Stoke, Gary.
But the more I thought of it I had to agree that in the circumstances it was a good point, even if it was a poor performance. Especially if we take into consideration the injuries and 3 games in 6 days.
At the moment most goals and assists are coming from just 3 players Teemu, Gabby and Sarge. Teemu is some way ahead of the others despite some fans writing his epitaph, Just like Grant Holt he will take one hell of replacing.
The next most contributions on goals and assists are Kieran Dowell and Onel Hernandez. Who sadly look to be out for quite a while.
There is a real irony hear that we are very reliant on two players who have in Onel’s case been surplus to requirement last season with so many loans and Kieran who due to injury and stamina issues? only plays well in spurts for the club.
Personally after Stoke’s impressive run of late I thought we may well be on the end of a hiding yesterday. So I suppose, reluctantly we have to except a point was a good result.
Here is my other theory for what it is worth.
I was shocked when I read yesterday that both Dean Smith and David Wagner had the same record after 10 games as the Norwich City coach in this division. No one can disagree that the atmosphere is vastly improved since DW came here which does give us hope for next season, but it is plain to see that for whatever reason this team is not the best squad in the division.
Nowhere near it.
I always thought Smith was probably shocked at how bad we were when he first got here. That was proven with a miserly 21 points at the end of the EPL season.
I think deep down David Wagner cannot wait for this season to be over and start again next. I think he too will be disappointed with this squad. Has anyone else ( other than you Marty) noticed he seems to be experimenting every match ?
I also believe deep down this squad are scarred by their two EPL experiences.
This season reminds me of the 2016/17 season. We finished 8th in a team that contained Ruddy, Bennett, Howson, Jerome, Klose, Hoolahan and Tettey. 8th !!! But we also had, Wildschut, Naismith, Mulumbu and Russ at centre half😱
Other players like Dorrans, Pritchard, Josh Murphy as well were not bad players, but something was wrong within the club and Alex Neil unsurprisingly lost his job.
So we have come full circle from then to now, and the main culprit other than the effect of two EPL relegations, Recruitment.
Plain and simple if you do not get that right you are in a right old mess. Which we are now.
Over the years so many “big” teams lose EPL status and soon end up in the third division (League One for youngsters) Southampton, QPR, Manchester City, Leicester City, Leeds united, Wolverhampton Wanderers and yes Norwich City FC are just some.
It is because these clubs carry these relegated players on unaffordable wages with that failure going right through the club with failed recruitment as the other ingredient needed for the disaster that is League One football. I bet we all remember Roeder’s Lone Ranger’s season 2 🤬
And we are there now fellow supporters. A £60 million loan which has to be repaid this summer from our EPL parachute payments will heavily restrict David Wagner’s team building.
If James Maddison goes from Leicester this summer for around a £100 million, which I think is inevitable, then that will mean £15 million to the club which will be another windfall from that young man which doesn’t sound a lot these days but it will be a help.
But it will not solve the biggest conundrum of all, how do you sustain a self-funding (even the clubs idea of self-funding which it is not if you borrow against the next two seasons income) in the EPL ?
The answer is you can’t. It is a myth.
Burnley, the best team in the Championship by a mile put out their best team bar one or two yesterday and get thrashed by 6. That is how hard it is to compete. Okay, Manchester City really can do that to anyone on their day but it is a sobering thought, one I think is imbedded in many of our players heads.
However I do still have faith in David Wagner. He has been a breath of fresh air. Up until yesterday totally honest, and to be fair I think he had his own reasons, explained above, for not berating the players yesterday despite the poor performance.
In away it reinforces my view that he isn’t a one trick pony and can find different ways to play. Something Daniel Farke I think found hard despite his obvious brilliance with his A game.
A preseason with players that want to be here, trained and fit enough to play WagnerBall for 90+ minutes with some much needed additions (help from our friends in the USA please) and lets see where we go next season.
.
Two years ago the club looked in great financial health with lots of young sellable assets and opportunities to go to the next level as we were about to head back to the Prem
Arrrons 20+
Cantwell 20+
Omabamadele 30+
Idah 20*
Moneyball purchases funded by Buendias sale :
Sargent young American international
Tzolis one of the best young talents in Europe TM
Rashica worth 30* once showcased in the prem
Giannoullis exciting Greek full back whose mate went to Liverpool
Where did it all go wrong ? Poor performances, injuries, loss in confidence, flaws that scouts didn’t spot like lack of pace, full backs that can’t defend etc and poor loan signings galore
How the hell did we end up two years later £50 million in debt, a poor squad and few sellable assets Answers on a postcard Mr Webber
Normally a relegated side needs to
Raise £30 million but we didn’t have the assets so gambled £6 million now on Sara with £7 on promotion and swapped PlM for Nunez and borrowed lots
This Summer will be brutal unless the Americans invest and gamble everything we can get back to the prem next year above the 3 relegated sides of Bournemouth, Southampton and another.
In the Champ next year We need 8 new players who have to be cheap, want to come and have an immediate impact
Hi Gary
I streamed the game live and Stokes as you say were the better team.
They bullied us and the Dark Arts came early from them and a Ref was happy to let things jog along.
Horses for course was mentioned a few weeks back and Wagner mustbe a disappointed by what he’s seeing during games if these were doing this in training would the get selected I’m not so sure and he knew what was on offer before he arrived.
Can city make the playoffs to add to the coffers and by some miracle Wembley and the uncompromising premiership,do we live in hope or dread.
Can we keep Sara and Gunn if we don’t go up, will this be the last of both Aarons and Pukki, Byram, Hernandez, Dowell and Placheta out of contracts, Dickson-Peters on loan at Grimsby out of contract not gettingmuch game time, Tomkinson at Stevenage will be back and the ever enduring question silk pure from a sow ear or will we be fighting for scraps at Delia’s table ?
We do better with Idah as central striker, we saw briefly last season.
Too many changes perhaps but Pukki and Sargent nowhere near their best.
If Idah is our main striker next season we are heading for league 1
Yep at 22yrs old no one can tell if he’s good or not that’s says everything look what Sutton was doing at 18yrs old
Adam Idah looks to me like a very poor imitation of Carlton Morris (without the fitness or goals).
But he’s OK; a juicy 5 year contract; big house; nice car; youngish……just not quite good enough for the Championship!!
O T B C
Comes into a side on a terrible run, can’t win at home. We win 3 home games in a row and score plenty of goals. He upsets defenders and creates the space for the midfielders to score. Gets injured and we can’t score. Same thing happened last season after his goal against Everton.
Gets judged on his car!
Time for Delia to finally demonstrate she’s a worthy owner and invest the £ millions required to clear the debt.
If she doesn’t then time is long overdue to put the sale sign up and spare us further misery.
I’ll go with your opening gambit, it doesn’t matter who coaches this current squad, they’re not promotion material as a group, average Championship, but we’ve been spoiled and you have all lived off it!! Go back through City history and this is what we are, sone good sone bad years. The difference? Technology and amateur journalism line this, people with a voice larger than their analytical ability.. this season is a shame but just live with it and wait for a reset. OTBC
Yes lots of interesting comments, to me the player look as tho they cannot be bothered wether they go up or not , if promoted which is just about impossible how we’re playing. The players know they get paid whatever the performance and if promoted some will not be here as obviously their not good enough , and those who are left who still aren’t good enough are in for a battering but then that’s where the wages help .