It’s been a few weeks since this front page carried a guest blog, but the re-triggering of the VAR debate following Liverpool’s ‘ghost’ goal at the weekend has prompted Alex Bain to put fingertip to keyboard.
All yours, Alex.
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Over the last few days, much of the talk in the media has been around the mess VAR made of the decision in the Spurs v Liverpool game, with most ex-Liverpool players who work in the media (and there are lots) screaming the Anfield roof off.
Goal-line technology was a step forward we were told and over the time it’s been in use it hasn’t caused too many controversial decisions, so FIFA took the next step and deployed the Video Assistant Referee technology, along similar lines to that developed for cricket.
But cricket is very different. The wickets and batters are stationary, not continuously running and/or getting tackled, so the VAR in football represents a very different challenge. Also in cricket, the captain has three golden bullets to challenge any on-field decisions.
On Saturday, the VAR team and the refereeing team had an extremely poor day and everyone could see that, but since then Sky Sports and its pundits have forgotten a simple rule: you can’t change a result or replay a game once it has completed the full 90 minutes.
One pundit, who also played for Blackburn and Aston Villa after leaving Liverpool, said live on Sky Sports that once the error was confirmed no matter how long after the restart the referee should have called both managers and captains together and allowed Liverpool to walk the ball into the net, thereby breaking FA, UEFA and FIFA rules.
That would set a dangerous precedent. The rules would need to be changed in order for errors to be corrected in this way.
Having said that, there are many problems with VAR and the debates will never cease. Offsides and handball will always trigger controversy.
Trying to nail offsides down to millimetres was destined never to work. Shouldn’t an offside be when giving an unfair advantage to the opposition player or maybe when the whole body is in an offside position? Only a few millimetres of a player’s foot just doesn’t do it for me.
And the handballs: once upon a time this was ruled as a movement of the hand or forearm towards the ball, but now it is taken as mid/upper arm to fingertips. Then came the controversial phrase, ‘if the arm is in an unnatural position’ but that in itself is open to interpretation. The shoulder is a ball and socket joint so can move in many natural positions – if it moves in an unnatural position it could possibly break!
So let’s return to the original rule: a deliberate movement towards the ball. When a player is adjudged to handle the ball when it’s deliberately kicked at his hand, that’s ball to hand – not a penalty or an offence. Spurs and Wolves are just two teams to have fallen foul of this rule in the opening weeks of the season, and we know that City have in the past.
But the hounding of officials by certain pundits after Saturday’s just shows an alarming lack of respect and flies in the face of the FA’s Respect campaign.
The request for the audio of the VAR officials (at the Spurs/Liverpool game) to be released has now been met but that, for me, is overstepping the line. As the rules currently stand, that’s a private conversation between the officials and should remain so unless all parties agree – not just the PGMOL and/or the FA.
The fallout from Saturday has begged three questions:
- Are we now seeing the thin edge of the wedge where if teams in the top echelons of English football are hard done by they try and get results overturned or replayed so it goes in their favour?
- Would all this media hype have happened if it was any other team but Liverpool?
- How many times have officials at Anfield given 50/50 decisions in Liverpool’s favour to the detriment of other teams?
Match officials, both on the field and off, are human. They have families and feelings, and what is being forgotten is that it’s a game of football. Once the final whistle is blown it should be over and done and we move on to the next game, but the keyboard cowards of today will abuse not only the officials but their families too.
For me, it’s about time that the media who cover these controversies take a good look at themselves.
Sport is to be enjoyed by all but some people have forgotten this and the entitlement brigade should just get off the bus.
This wasn’t a 50/50 decision it was a clear wrong decision, that wasn’t the only one in the game the 2 red cards both not red cards and liverpool should have had a penitly but not given there were other calls too. This will help the whole of football not just liverpool, if you love the sport you should be backing liverpool here.
No-one’s disagreeing that they were wrong decisions, Adam. They clearly were. The point is, we’ve all been stitched up by VAR at some point. and felt wholly aggrieved by the whole process. It just feels to the rest of us that this VAR cock-up has been magnified far more because it’s Liverpool. That’s all.
And? Shouldn’t we all be unified then and demand changes? As a fan I don’t get any satisfaction from winning a game if the decision is wrong and think that the other teams should be seeing it as a great opportunity to actual bring real change in VAR than moaning at LFC for looking to make changes. Saying “it’s rubbish for everyone so suck it up” just leads to more of the same for everyone doesn’t it?
But why does it take for Liverpool to get a stinker of a decision for the demand for change to get amplified? It just feels a bit like the Reds being on the receiving end for almost the first time and so spitting out the collective dummy.
Why, for example, wasn’t the trigger for change when Pukki had one disallowed against Spurs in 2020 when he was visibly onside? Because it was Norwich and no-one, except us, gives a shit perhaps?
I think it was Fat Frank saying that each season prior to the start that all club managers and owners have a meeting on how changes can be made to improve how VAR is implemented etc
But the most powerful lobby of clubs reject anything seen to affect their status or game plan, so again is it those who benefit from poor decisions made that want the status quo to remain until it bites them where it hurts – their pockets.
When you hear managers moan that they don’t get enough penalties, that just makes me think that besides having a throwing coach do the have a stunt coordinator to teach them how to fall in the penalty area. Now that would be Hollywood!
Totally agree with your penultimate sentence Gary and would add that they also have the perfect accent to whinge about it too 🤣
Hi Adam
I said nowhere that any of those decisions were 50/50.
And, as Gary said, we all think and agree it was down to very poor officials and speeding up the decision making has led to errors.
Were Liverpool due a penalty? I was told that this was the first game this season they didn’t get one
Author clearly has an axe to grind as you can tell by the tone of the article. This wasn’t about a subjective all, or lines being drawn wrong, this was gross incompetence and not paying attention. Audio of VAR should be available for every decision. If this is the thin end, then hopefully it will become the thick end.
No more so that the Liverpool supporting pundits , who really are wailing about this error . Humans will make errors . Until AI improves and does the job we will always have human error.
I have no axe to grind.
Liverpool, it seems, have more decisions go in their favour, especially at Anfield.
My whole point was is VAR going to work long term and just how much media coverage would it have got if it wasn’t one of the supposedly big clubs
It is impossible to understand how Darren England could have made such a mistake? VAR is involved in the game so a few times, that mistake he made its impossible to make. So my obvious claim is that he made it on purpose. Everyone who watched the game saw that it was not offside. If a cashier lady steals 1000 pounds of cash and then claims that it was just a typical human error, no one believes it. So, this is a way bigger problem to the Premier League than just a VAR mistake.
That’s a whole different can of worms 1X2 – not sure any decision is, or was, done illegally but were the VAR team fit for purpose after a long flight?
Long haul flight do drain you, so possibly they should have either stepped down or been replaced. Mistakes are part and parcel of the game but VAR has just taken those mistakes to a new and higher level.
Thanks for the reply.
AlexB, if that Var decision was human error, its absolutely time to get refereeing in England at a much higher level. Referees should be the same way professionals as players and not just going to some game. Brutal error and its impossible to trust those var referees anymore. I just dont understand why there were only 2 persons making var decisions, surely the Premier league has money to build or buy more space to Var referees.
I saw Southampton-Leeds and Blackburn-Leicester games last weekend. Leeds were slightly better, but Southampton scored every chance and Blackburn wasted good scoring chances. I have never understood why Leeds fans rate Meslier so high, he was one of the main reasons why Leeds got relegated last season. Soton pressed high and he and their defenders didnt know how to get away from high press. It took last season some time that Russel Martins style of playing started to work in Swansea, it looked happening again but now it has started to click better.
Ipswich just keeps on winning, do they have a material to cover possible injuries during the season?
Alex, I totally agree with you that the result cannot be overturned after the game, and there is no justification for replaying the game either. In this instance, the fault lies entirely with the the officials, who have been promoted above their level of competence.
As for your three points above,
1. Yes, it probably is the thin end of the wedge. It’s going to happen more and more, given the obscene amounts of money at stake.
2. Yes, it probably would have been the same if it had been Man Utd, and maybe one or two others, but certainly Liverpool are not backward in their “we’re being picked on” attitude.
3. I don’t know the answer to this one, but you could turn it round and ask how many times have we had those sort of decisions go against us?
I just don’t understand why a high profile game like this was officiated by on pitch and VAR referees who have a track record of controversial decisions. If you’ve got Simon Hooper on the pitch, you need someone really competent as VAR to correct his errors. The offside wasn’t the only wrong decision in this game.
Hi Jim,
People make errors in life and have to live with them.
Sadly the PGMOL have just made a rod for their own back, releasing the audio tape has added more pressure to an already stressful job, and now will every club ask for audio tapes of their games to be released if they feel an injustice has been done?
Hooper and his team were let down by England and his team both have to accept their part in this mess but putting out audio tapes trying to appease clubs will back fire big time.
Thanks for the reply
VAR is awful. Even when they get the outcome right, the waiting and interruption to the game is dreadful. I know it’s going to be with us forever, but I would scrap it in a heartbeat.
Liverpool suffered this time, but they seem to have benefitted more than most by incorrect VAR decisions (earning the the sobriquet LiVARpool).
Let’s get back to having an hour in the pub arguing about dodgy on field refereeing decisions.
Hi Don
We always had a car-full going home from Carrow Road to the South Star pub in Gt Yarmouth and the debates on decisions made were well and truly argued over on that journey.
The dicussions these days would all be about the faceless officials in some closet in London affecting the outcome.
Thanks for your reply
The thing is that it was clearly visible to the naked eye that the goal was scored regularly… then VAR confirmed it… but miraculously it didn’t react… what should everyone who follows football think?… and no, it’s not about Liverpool, it’s about the game and the regularity of the game… why watch football if we can expect the final outcome to be created in rooms that have nothing to do with the events on the field
I agree it should be all about football but the ex-Liverpool pundits have all made it about how badly their club has been treated, yet when a wrong decision goes in their favour they never make a squeak, and we are told it evens itself out over a season.
Possibly, prior to VAR bad decisions would level themselves out but now they don’t and it seems most poor decisions give an advantage to the so-called big clubs
Trying to paint this as similar to a “50-50” decision is just plain wrong. Please name another time where the officials have made a decision and then been unable to implement it?
Every other example that has been cited – for example the foul on the Wolves player, the goal by Ake – the officials implemented what they felt was right at the time. In this example they were saying it was a legitimate goal.
Maybe instead of having a go at the club that raised it – this could have happened to any club in the league – you should be pushing for a proper reform of VAR such that it doesn’t happen again. Oh, and by the way, replays have happened – Sheffield United Vs Arsenal for one. Howard Webb also ordered one in the States last year due to a referee error!
A replay won’t happen and no one is really pushing for that but let’s not try and use the “it’s rubbish for everyone” line to justify nothing real being done.
I never tried to paint anything as a 50/50 decision.
I was trying to say many clubs get poor VAR decisions and I agree in this game all the officials went above and beyond any acceptable practice.
Offside should, in my opinion, be the full body not millimetres. As for picking on your team, Liverpool, I wasn’t in any shape or form. Was just asking the question, would there have been as much media coverage if all those decisions had gone against Spurs or any other team on the day?
Have always said that it’s financially great to go up but you also know what you are going to get 1. VAR 2. Decisions invariably go against you and 3. The big teams get the penalties. Generalisations I know but this latest fiasco seems to lend some credence to those thoughts !
The comical thing is that everyone has been screaming about the time decisions take and that speeding up those decisions was paramount to the game.
Now speeding up those decisions has come back to bite those pundits were it hurts and it just so happened in the biggest game of the weekend.
Thanks for the comment
I don’t think many Liverpool supporters are asking for the points or game to be replayed. Neither is the club.
What you and the media are missing is there is a real problem with the PGMOL. Instead of everyone moving to “tough it’s not us, it’s Liverpool we don’t care”.
This could and should have been a time for clubs and supporters to demand proper oversight of the PGMOL.
The var team had returned from the uae just 20 hours before this game where they earn more in one game than in a month in England.
Were they tired, corrupted by Man City owners, influenced? The refs live in a closed and dominant position where they decide everything. They have no oversight.
We need change and more transparency. That is what any football supporter should want.
Hi Neil
At no time have I said that the Liverpool supporters are calling for a replay.
Changes are required to improve a poor system but my question was if it was not Liverpool (or maybe another top six club) would this have had the same media coverage?
Even with VAR, all decisions are subjective to both sides and I hope that continues in the game we all love,
Thanks for the comment
Worth noting that Klopp is now calling for a replay…
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/67003386
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67003386
I know the ridiculous amount of money in football means people think we have to use technology, but does anyone miss when human error and officiating mistakes were just part of the game? Or any game? Accepting bad decisions, and assuming it was not a grand conspiracy used to be good for ones personal development.
Trying to teach young cricketers to respect the umpires decision these days, while their heroes stand there and make a signal to suggest the blind old bat the other end needs some technological assistance, is impossible.
Finger up=batsmen out. Flag up= offside.
and yes Alex, full tie whistle = result.
Hi Trev
As Jimmy Greaves would say ‘it’s a funny old game’
Tennis, cricket and rugby have review systems that all have problems. Cricket, I think, is the only one that has a captain’s review. I’m not sure that would work in football as the players don’t grasp the simple rule that it’s only the captain that talks to the ref.
Could it be a manager’s review shown on the big screen? That might work but there would have to be a time limit to ask for one. Cricket has 10 seconds but can have as many reviews until they have had three incorrect ones but this, again, would add to the extra playing time allowed and so (again) more moans.
I wonder what VAR would’ve made of the Norman Hunter, Franny Lee incident, great to see that again, (albeit both men are sadly no longer with us). A much better watch than the Diaz offside video.
Human beings make errors we all do, to me no different than what occurs in games week in week out where VAR isn’t an option. It’s been blown out of all proportion by media and Clippity Klop.
I’m quite pleased Spurs benefited, the Aussie is a class act,
I always remember the Spurs v Leeds game, Dave Mackay’s first game back after his second leg break, and Billy Bremner went in hard and over the ball. Mackay just grabbed him by the shirt and lifted him of his feet – now how many would have called for one or both to be sent off via VAR?
All managers only see what they want to see. Wenger at Arsenal could not see an opposition player fouled in front of him yet could see a hand ball in his favor through a crowded penalty area. Klopp and Pep have got that same blind spot.
How would it work if managers were removed from the touchline and, like rugby, were sat in a room high in the stands but in contract with their bench? Now that would stop problems – even put both managers in the same room.
Thanks for the reply
Like your suggestion re referees, get them away from pitch side. Oh how some would miss the opportunity for play acting.
A lot of people have commented in recent years about how poor our top level refereeing, including VAR, seems to be these days. Well, to me that’s what the game has brought upon itself with decades of disrespect from players and pundits alike. It’s come home to roost. If you can’t recruit and retain at the lowest levels the chances of a genuinely talented official appearing are greatly reduced.
Referees start at grass roots level where they are treated as dirt by a substantial number of players and coaches – it’s not much different in my view to the mindset of hatred that many fans adopt towards those who happen to come from a different town and support a different team. Of course, the grass roots clubs just blame this on the example from the top, which is far from perfect. But I don’t buy that; two wrongs don’t make a right. It is more in line with the lack of respect and tolerance many parents show towards teachers or patients towards NHS staff.
I wonder how many people on here would ever consider being a referee (if they were young enough again, obviously) My excuse is at 5 ft 3 (on tiptoe) and having worn specs since I was 3, I don’t quite fit the profile. What’s yours? If I were a strapping 6 footer with the eyes of a hawk though……. I still wouldn’t do it.
Howard Webb has only been in his role a few weeks. I think given time he will make a lot of progress in the right direction, both on-field and at Stockley Park. Apparently he is already trying to identify and fast track younger referees with talent, but it will take a couple of years before that has an effect. In fact I think our ref tonight is quite well thought of – let’s see if that’s the case tomorrow!
I would imagine the style of “chat” between the various parties will soon become rather more like that in rugby – focused, clear, professional and not “matey”.
He will surely also want to ditch the rule (imposed from above) that stopped them awarding the goal once the match had restarted. Had they been able to do that, all this fuss would never have happened. No need for an “Oh Fxxx” after all.
I also wonder if they will conclude that VAR officials do not need to be currently active referees. There is no reason why those who retired in the last few years shouldn’t fill the role, if they can work it round whatever else they’ve moved on to. They don’t have to sprint up and down the studio. They don’t even have to have been PL referees. There must be plenty who didn’t quite reach the very top – perhaps because their man management skills weren’t quite there – who have the requisite knowledge. Much like the fact that many top managers were quite ordinary players in fact.
Hi Keith
Most of the civil service and military get no respect, which is getting towards pandemic proportions.
Discipline in schools is non-existent and parents don’t seem to want control their children, and it seems fully-grown adults abuse semi-professional refs. They forget without those officials games wouldn’t be played.
While in the RAF I started a referee course and went to see a Soham v Ely game – the abuse was something else. I turned to my instructor’s and asked is it always like this and was informed it sometimes gets physical, so my refereeing career ended there and then.
Using ex-refs might be a great idea but why not expand that and use retired footballers working with a retired ref, and get established teams working together so they learn how each other operates.
But would retired refs and ex-pros want the possible abuse that Hooper and England have received in the last few days?
Hi Gary
Thanks for using my take on VAR and the controversial decisions last weekend.
A good mixed bag of comments in reply
There is, or was, no justification for both official teams getting so much wrong. Human error compounded by poor communication and the media stirred it up with over zealous pundits spitting out verbal diarrhoea to suit their own views and forgetting that those officials didn’t do anything on purpose.
Again thanks for airing my simplistic views and I’ve enjoyed reading the comments.
AlexB
I know this isn’t what this piece is about, but this is a very important point…
“But cricket is very different. The wickets and batters are stationary, not continuously running and/or getting tackled, so the VAR in football represents a very different challenge.”
Consider that it takes four people in a room, with vast amounts of technology at the highest levels of the game to decide if someone is in line with another person. Then consider, how little technology exists throughout most of the game, how many moving parts there are in any particular phase in a game, and yet we are still given the “Expected Goals” stat. It’s drivel, nonsense.
If two people on the pitch, four in the room, and high tech technology can’t make a simple correct decision, what hope does XG have of being useful.
Hi David
Thanks and I fully agree with you
It’s now official – Klopp has stated that the game should be replayed but in the same breath said he didn’t want to talk about the controversial decisions… then went on to say more about the bookings.
All sport has to learn is how to use the technology better
I think any top six club in the same situation as Liverpool on Saturday Alex the press and TV reaction would be the same. So I wouldn’t single out Liverpool. God forbid it was Manchester United…. questions would have been asked in Parliament.
Why were these VAR individuals were allegedly allowed to go to UAE two days before Saturday’s game and take charge of a game there and returning only the day before. Surely this is ridiculous.
Okay its perhaps not jet lag territory but they must have been tired which doesn’t help with concentration.
They come across as rushed, confused and unprofessional. Surely you need to know what you are checking for.
I wanted VAR now I hate it, but its here to stay whatever we think. So the whole thing needs a revamp.
Start from scratch, have Var only refs and match day only refs. The VAR controller seemed the only guy at the start seemed to understand what had happened. So he more refs do this the better they should become.
Hi Tim
Not sure the media would have covered it as much for a few other teams but with so many pundits associated with Liverpoool then it was obvious they would push the agenda on it.
This game has opened too many cans of worms for the lid to go back on.
Calling the game back after it has been restarted a few seconds is fine but when do you stop it the rule says once a game has been restarted, no recall. End of.
Replaying doesn’t work – it will set a precedent and every club that doesn’t like a VAR decision will want a replay.
Yesterday the first sending-off was appealed and got turned down; today Klopp said that it was only a yellow card. Just accept it and move on.
As many have said, how many decisions have gone Liverpool’s way? And when asked Klopp has said we live by the onfield decisions and once the games over we live with the result.
But that only applies if it’s in their favour
Thanks for the comment
I’ve got a suggestion. Simon Hooper, Darren England, and around another half dozen I could probably think of, get shipped out permanently to the Saudi League, then we won’t have issues over tiredness caused by flying back and forth, and we’ll have rid ourselves of some rubbish. They might find a somewhat stiffer penalty in Saudi than just being “left off the PGMOL schedule for the next game.
That just might work then add the so call Sky Pundits as well
Sadly this shows that he wants the rules only to apply when it suites a win for LIVARPOOL
Jurgen Klopp has now called for the game to be replayed, and, as you can imagine, the footballing world is now hotly debating whether or not the match should be rebooted in order to give a more fair result.
Klopp may be calling for a replay on this occasion, but, in our view, there’s absolutely no way this should happen.
Yes, the decision was terrible, but the frustrating reality is that these things happen in football, and it’s not as though Klopp hasn’t been on the other end of these decisions in the past.
In fact, Klopp himself has admitted on two occasions that his team has benefitted from dodgy offside decisions, and on neither occasion has he offered or ordered a replay.
Klopp’s past admissions
Klopp has spoken about offside calls in his favour on two occasions, once against Fulham and once against West Ham.
In fact, during the Fulham game he even said ‘Fulham cannot change it’ after a dodgy offside call, which, in light of current events, seems a bit hypocritical.
“In the end we were a bit lucky and maybe because of Robbo it is not 100 per cent offside because of his heel. We cannot change it, Fulham cannot change it,” Klopp said.
“Apart from scoring more goals it was a really good performance. Fulham always have the quality to cause problems. We had to work hard, we won it. All good.”
Klopp said similar against West Ham back in 2019 when he admitted his team had scored an offside goal without offering up a replay.
“Obviously, our goal was offside,” he said. “I didn’t know that in the game and at half-time nobody told me, I didn’t ask.
“After the game, our analysts told me immediately. They scored a goal, we scored an offside goal.
“Apart from that, it’s a game where if Divock [Origi] scores the late goal then that would be a lucky moment. But the point is absolutely deserved.”
No replay?
This just serves to highlight why Klopp’s replay argument right now is absurd.
These are just two incidents where Liverpool benefitted from an offside call, and did Klopp offer to replay those games at the time? Of course not.
It’s frustrating, and the manner of this offside decision being wrong is unprecedented, but it all falls under the same category, human error.
There are some things in football that you just have to accept, sometimes you’ll be on the wrong end of a decision, sometimes you won’t. Liverpool got to a Champions League final in 2005 off the back of a ghost goal, and they won the 2001 FA Cup final after a ridiculous handball by Stephane Henchoz was missed. These things can happen.
It’s annoying, we can understand why Klopp is upset, but he should know better than anyone. That’s football
The handball law has never been ‘arm to ball’. That was an interpretation many erroneously put on the simple phrase ‘deliberately handles the ball’.
And there is an illustration of one of the problems for the game: so few people have ever properly learned the laws.